this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
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Science Memes

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[–] Zehzin 190 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Critical government services running COBOL. Programs stored in magnetic tapes, entire offices dependant on one guy who's retiring. All that code will be lost in time, like tears in rain

[–] TheLameSauce 90 points 1 year ago (3 children)

There is genuine money to be made in learning the "dead languages" of the IT world. If you're the only person within 500 Miles that knows how to maintain COBOL you can basically name your price when it comes to salary.

I just wish I had the slightest interest in programing

[–] cm0002 70 points 1 year ago (8 children)

I've seriously looked into picking one of these dead languages up and honestly, it's not worth it.

Biggest issue is, you have to be experienced to some degree before you get the name your price levels. So you'll have to take regular ol average programmer pay (at best) for a language that's a nightmare in 2023. Your sanity is at heavy risk.

I'd honestly rather bash my head with assembly, it's still very much in use these days in a modern way. Most programs still get compiled into it anyway (Albeit to a far more complicated instruction set than in the past) and can still land some well paid positions for not a whole lot of experience (relatively)

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago

Yeah everytime someone says "just learn COBOL, you'll make tons of money," it's like,

Bro.

There's a reason no one wants to write new software in these languages anymore, let alone maintain a forty-year-old pile of technical debt.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Been working in COBOL for a decade and this is all true.

I'm lucky. I personally enjoy it. But i can totally see how it's an absolute nightmare for most people.

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[–] Potatos_are_not_friends 33 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is one of those fantasies people have. You might as well hope to win the lottery.

Imagine being the only person who can play a extremely custom instrument. Unless someone absolutely needs you, you'll be sitting and hoping to get a job. Worse, a company is more likely to hire some people to rebuild it rather than hope to find this unicorn who can do this.

Source: Been in the industry for 15yrs. I'm one of those guys you hire to migrate old software to a web app. And frequently, company will pay to modernize rather than support outdated tech every time.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Been in the industry for 10 years and i deeply disagree with you. I work in COBOL.

Not that migrations don't happen, but in my experience, many, many companies kick that can down the road each year, because migrating huge and critical services is extremely costly, time-consuming and risky. In the short term, just paying people to maintain the dinosaurs is waaaay cheaper.

Also, it's extremely easy to get a job in it ( my company now hires people with no IT background and tries to teach them cobol from scratch ), because even though it's a niche, the demand for it still outweighs the supply of people willing to learn it.

Will it die out eventually? Maybe. I've been hearing about its death for a decade, so i've become skeptical about it in the short-term.

Edit : would also like to point out that it is indeed a fantasy that it pays truckloads of money. Does it happen? Sometimes, but you need to be really good and experienced at it.

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[–] SupraMario 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

There is some logic to running older stuff, a lot of it is a closed system and it's harder for threats to target it. Banks are a big one that still run a ton of our financial infrastructure on COBOL.

Hospitals also run on a ton of abandon ware, same with machine shops. Ultrasound machines that are still running 95 because for the hospital to upgrade to windows 7 or 10 is millions for a few machines. So you just airgap the systems for security.

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[–] [email protected] 105 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Highly agree with the first point, companies should not be able to hold exclusive rights to any product they no longer provide support for.

Abandonware and unsold products are one of the few cases in which I consider piracy ethical

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[–] [email protected] 80 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Originally copyright was like 15 years and if the thing was really good for you then you could Apply for a second 15 year term.

30 years is a long time to get a monopoly over something. As a human being, 30 years is a significant part of your entire lifetime. From birth to 30 years you have your entire childhood, many people go to and finish college, get married, have kids, achieve a degree of professional success. Another 30 years from that moment, many people are at the end of their lives. They're retiring, some who smoked or did other things are dying of old people diseases.

I believe strongly enough that 15 years is a reasonable copyright term that my book, the graysonian ethic, which I published in 2021, has a note on the legal page releasing it to the public domain 15 years from the first date of publishing, and in jurisdictions where you can't do that, it's licensed under the creative Commons zero license

If I want to own the rights to another book, I can write another book. If I can't make back the money that I spent writing and publishing it in 15 years, then that's a me problem, not a society problem the police can help enforce.

The famous song Happy Birthday left copyright only a couple years ago, and not because it timed out. The song which was written in the era of my great grandparents only lost protection from the largest state in history because after a hundred years no one could keep track of who owned it anymore.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

From birth to 30 years you have your entire childhood, many people go to and finish college, get married, have kids, achieve a degree of professional success. Another 30 years from that moment, many people are at the end of their lives

Oh, don't hurt me like that, please...

[–] Clbull 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly, the only silver lining of Ron DeSantis's feud with Disney over anti-gay legislation is that the Republicans might end up undoing all the copyright extensions Disney lobbied for over the past few decades.

Disney is largely to blame for America's copyright laws being so fucked.

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[–] Droggelbecher 70 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I work in an astrophysics department and this is exactly why we almost exclusively use open source software

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[–] someguy3 67 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a good read, read it.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

+1, do not regret

[–] CADmonkey 43 points 1 year ago (4 children)

This happens in the world of CNC machines too. I used to run a two million dollar Mazak 300 Fabrigear that was made in 2008. When I started the machine up, Windows 98 booted up before starting the FANUC control program that actually ran the machine.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (9 children)

My friend's dad has a CNC machine that requires floppy disks to load the design patterns. He's worried that a mechanical failure of the disk drive will eventually be the end of it, rather than the machine itself being obsolete. It's been going strong for almost 40 years now.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Games publishers are in a war of attention and don't want to compete with themselves. They won't sell you an old game if they can get you hooked on the new version with microtransactions and DLC with no story and sub-par multiplayer.

The next point is just making the case for open source.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Kinda related, in the company I used to work everything was done in SAS, an statistical analysis software (SAS duh) that fucking sucks. It's used to be great, but once your on their environment you are trapped for fucking forever. I hated it and refuse to learned it over what was basic for my daily tasks. A couple of months I moved to another company that used to pay a consulting firm for my job, so my boss and me had to start everything fresh and the first thing we did was to study what are going to use as statistics software and I fight tooth and nails for Python and one of the points I pushed was that if in the future we decide to move out of Python we could easily can do it, while other solutions could locked up us with them.

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[–] pyt0xic 32 points 1 year ago

I work for a company who's main source of income is a suite of accounting, stock and job management applications, all of which are written in FoxPro. The community add-ons and support is incredible but there hasn't been any official support since like 2009.

Microsoft bought the license for FoxPro, supported it for a few years then killed it off when VB came out. I wonder why xD

The crazy part is some of our clients are turning over 100s of millions in profit a year, using this crappy, mess of a system written in a dead language, by one dude 😂

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I agree, although the number of pointless updates that would be pushed so that companies can keep the rights to their software makes me cringe

[–] BambiDiego 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Capitalism will always capitalism. "Oh, we have to provide a healthy option? Okay, it'll be the expensive option." "Oh, we have to support software? Okay, subscription models only" "Oh, we have to pay our workers minimum wage? Okay, we'll pay them not a penny more and raise our prices"

It's an endless fight... Yet, we can't stop fighting it, because attrition of our values and apathy in our actions are weapons the system uses against us.

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[–] DpZer0126 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This post is so true. I work in local government in a state that has TONS of money, yet our systems to control the information for agents to determine if you keep your kids or not is still based on MS-DOS. it's insane to see in 2023

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[–] ghostdoggtv 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I love this post. How can you have the rights to something you don't support?

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (5 children)

IP shouldn't exist in general.

[–] SkybreakerEngineer 45 points 1 year ago (3 children)

But then how would TCP and UDP work?

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)

simple. TCP wouldn't, and UDP never did anyway.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago
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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

When Windows dropped support for XP, our NMR lab decided to change the OS of the PC linked to the NMR machine to Linux. Since I don’t work there anymore I don't know if they were able to do that successfully.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

I don't know how we can't legislate this into existence eventually if nothing else just based on climate change and the amount of working material we just... throw away. Especially as more and more things integrate software, I imagine that it's going to feel absolutely insane to people in a few decades (after the water wars and the great migrations) that they had technology like the microscope in the post but the company decided no more software updates so now it's just garbage.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not a programmer or anything, but I've heard decompilers have gotten better over the years.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (6 children)

The problem is that you’d need the quarter-million dollar electron microscope to test your reverse-engineered modern version, and if you get something wrong and you fry it…

That being said, I wonder why labs don’t just make a VM. Hardware passthru is definitely a thing, parallel port cards exist (as do serial port) and you can back up a VM to whatever modern storage you want. Maybe the problem is proprietary cards/connectors? PCI-X or older?

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[–] AA5B 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Many years ago, I worked for a software company that included code escrow for our customers. If something happened to is, they could unlock the code and support it themselves.

It can be done, but probably only is in industries with strong companies for customers

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