this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023
291 points (89.2% liked)

Games

32729 readers
2612 users here now

Welcome to the largest gaming community on Lemmy! Discussion for all kinds of games. Video games, tabletop games, card games etc.

Weekly Threads:

What Are You Playing?

The Weekly Discussion Topic

Rules:

  1. Submissions have to be related to games

  2. No bigotry or harassment, be civil

  3. No excessive self-promotion

  4. Stay on-topic; no memes, funny videos, giveaways, reposts, or low-effort posts

  5. Mark Spoilers and NSFW

  6. No linking to piracy

More information about the community rules can be found here.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I have recently played 3 games that have forced a lengthy, unskippable tutorial section that runs for several hours of the game, just to unlock the most basic functions like buying the items, customizing features, multiplayer, and even 2-player split screen modes.

For 2 of these games (Armored Core 6 and Gran Turismo 7), the major draw for me was the MP and I haven't even gotten to check out MP yet because it's locked out until you get passed a certain point in the progression system. Fuckin' why do any developers do this? I just wanted to play with my sister but we have to get through most of the fucking game before we are allowed to do the multiplayer modes. Such bullshit.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 78 points 1 year ago (4 children)

One of the Pokémon games has audio settings behind an unlock.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago

Ugh, it took me so long to find that when playing Pokémon Sword so I wasn't deafened by the cries whenever someone Dynamaxed.

Remember when earlier gens locked the run button behind an unlock?

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fuck the running shoes too.

[–] FastAndBulbous 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don't you get them after about 10 minutes of play?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

It's a slow ten minutes

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

That's evil

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Waluigis_Talking_Buttplug 42 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I have uninstalled and refunded games with frustrating tutorials

At this point in life, if a game is too complex for me to understand by simply playing the game organically, I'm going to watch a YouTube video. Reading pop up menus is okay unless they physically lock you out of the game.

[–] OrderedChaos 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If there is a constant need to watch YouTube videos or look up game guides the days of playing that game ends very quickly. Must be intuitive to play.

[–] Waluigis_Talking_Buttplug 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I very much disagree. Games like Dwarf Fortress or Rimworld absolutely benefit from both being left to your own devices AND having a repository of information to resort to.

Games with a steep learning curve shouldn't necessarily lock you into a tutorial, just give me the option and let me fail a few times until I get the hang of things.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Factorio and Stellaris are another 2 great games with steep learning curves. They're also 2 of my most played games according to steam.

[–] bigmclargehuge 7 points 1 year ago

Another commenter mentioned Elite: Dangerous. I have almost 300 hours into this game (rookie numbers for a lot of ED players), and I was still learning brand new mechanics I had no idea were in the game. One of the best experiences I've ever had in a game purely because it let me fail and learn on my own, even after I had lots of experience.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] JustZ 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

People won't enjoy a game unless they learn the basic features.

It's a fine line for devs between teaching the player what they need to know in order to even have a chance at enjoying the game, and jamming it down their throats.

The classic example is the game Portal. It's a perfect tutorial. The player doesn't even realize it's the tutorial.

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/analysis-of-game-concepts-and-player-learning-in-portal

I am frustrated with Cities Skylines 2, lately. Text-based tutorial with optional progress checks which is okay, but they pop up as soon as you look at a newly unlocked feature, not necessarily when you are ready to build the feature.

[–] setsneedtofeed 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

My favorite tutorial was in STALKER. The guy gives you a pistol and tells you good luck.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The original Super Mario Brothers' first level is the best tutorial ever made. It teaches you every function of the game right in that first level, without holding your hand or even telling you it's a tutorial.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Sometimes I feel this, but the opposite is also true. I have a friend who will play a game for less than half an hour, declare it trash, and then complain the entire time because he thinks the mechanics are broken because he never bothered to play the single player mode where the game teaches you how the weapons, vehicles, and planes all work. It makes playing virtually any game with him a total drag unless he actually spends a bit of time in it. And then suddenly, he actually likes it.

He's declared a bunch of games trash, played them for longer than a few sessions, and then puts 100 hours in it once he's been forced to actually understand how the game works x3

Subnautica, Deep Rock Galactic, The Forest, Divinity 2: Original Sin, and Baldur's Gate 3, all trash until he actually put time into them, and then really liked them. Somehow, he put 500 hours into Elite Dangerous, lol.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I am playing Elite Dangerous right now with over 500 hours too. I know all the mechanics since I've been playing since beta and saw them as they were added and have even contributed to the wiki.

It is trash. :P

[–] bigmclargehuge 6 points 1 year ago

Beautiful trash

[–] MilitantAtheist 5 points 1 year ago

3000 hours, done everything, killed everything, mined everything. It's horrible. Oh well. Back to Tarkov, and my 13000 hours...

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Katana314 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can’t say I agree with this take.

I’ve played some games where the hero gets all of their tools from the outset, and it ends up being really hard to figure out when to use each one. Comparatively, when you slowly unlock things during tutorials, you’re building a mental framework of how combat should go, and on each unlock, get some time to work out how that fits in.

In fact, it’s something I think is an issue with fighting games and their competitive-only mindset. People play the 20 tutorials in quick sequence, get confused by a Reverse Upper Back-Airdodge-Cancel input that’s only going to happen in high-level play, and feel overwhelmed.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm not really talking about powers or skills your character can get; I'm talking like being able to get into multiplayer, or the settings, specific game modes, etc.

Using GT7 as an example again, you can't even get to the settings page until you have gone through a very niche "tutorial" race mode that is unlike the rest of the game, and also sit through a 20 minute unskippable cutscene (which plays everytime you run the game unless you go into the settings to disable it) before you're presented with the main menu screen.

[–] Katana314 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, arguing against unskippable cutscenes or misrepresentative tutorials is basically like comedians pegging on airline food.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Airplane food is actually more palatable than unskippable 20 minute cutscenes, IMO.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Get bored with games SO quickly. Part of how to keep interest is figuring out on my own how the game works. And I can, on my own, figure out games, software, very quickly.

Too many phone games try to make you sit thru insufferable tedious tutorials. So you're not only depriving me the chance to figure out on my own, you're also insulting my intelligence. Any game does this, instant uninstall.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

can suck my nuts

Present them.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are you one of said games?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

It's from South Park. Cartman says suck my balls, and Ms Chokesondiks replies "present them, and I'll suck 'em".

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] nul9o9 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I replayed FF 13 a while ago, I was absolutely shocked how long it took to be able to customize role settings for the party members.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] forkbomb 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As much as I love AC6 I too was baffled as to why multiplayer was locked until half the game was complete.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I would probably have done it at the start of Chapter 2 rather than the end, but Chapter 2 (on NG) is pretty short anyway. The main idea is that you have faced two (and a half) different boss types by that point and should have a good feel for how to use different legs, have a good set of weapons, etc. Which, since there is no concept of Soul Memory or even progression based matchmaking, is kind of needed to prevent people's first experience with AC6 multiplayer being the starting core getting demolished by double Zimmers.

And it isn't half the game.

spoilerChapter 3 is pretty long and 4 and 5, while somewhat short, are brutal.

What I do disagree with is holding off access to the store until late Chapter 1. But I also get that people will likely be overwhelmed by the store rather than excited, so it is probably a good approach. Let the player know how to swap out parts and what not before letting them run free. Still don't like it though.

[–] Decoy321 9 points 1 year ago

I agree on this sentiment. The games mechanics, while more streamlined than its predecessors, are still insanely complex. I've been playing these games since the first on the original PlayStation. And when I first jumped into MP, I got my ass handed to me quite thoroughly. It took quite some time upgrading parts and getting familiar with various builds before I started actually winning.

I figure they gated MP more to minimize how many noobs are in lobbies.

[–] CosmicSploogeDrizzle 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Is it really half the game? That's crazy

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] peachfaced 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have to say that this highly depends on the type of games you like, and if the unlocks are well designed into the story.

In general most of the types mentioned are cashgrabs, but I enjoyed an indie game called Evoland. You can 'unlock' better graphics and audio as part of the game, watching the evolution of gaming

[–] Zehzin 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In Starfield (and FO4 for that matter) basic game functions are locked behind perks, you need to be like level 30 before you can start playing the game

[–] LucasWaffyWaf 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It felt really odd that the stealth meter, a staple in every Bethesda rpg I've played, had to be unlocked with a skill point in Starfield.

[–] yamanii 8 points 1 year ago

I think this makes sense for a RPG, why would a guns blazing character suddenly know how good he was at being stealthy? Bethesda is trying to do undo what they did with Skyrim with the hero that is a good at everything.

[–] Tarquinn2049 13 points 1 year ago

Yeah, local multiplayer or custom hosted multiplayer should be unlocked right away. Online matched multiplayer can be skill/tutorial gated just fine.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In ac6 it's about the inventory and not the gameplay. Before the multiplayer unlocks you simply don't have enough stuff to go online to fight.

Yes, it would be nice if they had some kind of fixed inventory multiplayer mode, but the main game is about getting stuff and early on you don't really have enough for a decent fight.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

100% this. AC PvP would be awful for a new player using the limited early game parts/weapons. Think MMO level 50 vs level 5.

Yes an argument can be made to still allow it so people can fight their friends early... but a lot of people would just go straight into it and just be turned off to it altogether.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] BURN 11 points 1 year ago (6 children)

GT7 makes sense. There needs to be some barrier to make sure people know how to drive the cars without just immediately jumping into the game.

Tutorials under 1hr are ok. Once they go over that I stop playing.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

It's not even just online MP. It's the split screen, too!

Besides: Why would there need to be a barrier? If you suck, you're just gonna lose. If there was a ranking system, eventually you only match with other players who suck. 🤷🏻‍♂️

load more comments (6 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I thought you were talking about mobile games or something locked behind a paywall before I read further and realized you're mad that multi-player is "locked" behind someone completing a tutorial. I haven't played either of the two games you mentioned by name but I would imagine that they are complicated/unique enough where a tutorial is warranted. It's kind of annoying if you just want to hop in and go, sure, but if "most of the fucking game" content consists of the beginning tutorial then you bought the wrong game to begin with.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

GT7 isn't any more complicated than GT1-6. To have an unskippable tutorial in the umpteenth installment of a game go over the basic controls and mechanics of racing a car is madness. They don't actually give you any tutorial on the stuff that should have it, like manually manipulating the engine tuning, but they have several points of progression to familiarize you with the brakes and gas and steering. Which anyone who has driven a car or played a racing game can very much figure the fuck out without a tutorial.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Tutorials are designed for the dumbest person out there who has zero idea what they're doing. So in this case someone who has never driven a car or played a racing game before. If a tutorial told you "this works like the last game, do the same" it's obviously bad design. Yeah that's a super small subset of the people playing the game but it's better to overexplain than underexplain. But in this case yeah they should 100% just have a separate tutorial mode section for people who need it, having that REQUIRED in a racing game is ridiculous. I haven't played racing games in years but last I remember that's what used to be the norm.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I mean, the easy option is just selecting your level of experience at the beginning and offering experienced players an option to skip the tutorial.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Usul_00_ 6 points 1 year ago

I recently restarted Borderlands and even though I have multiple characters leveled to the top they make me start at the basic floor to prove I can play or something when I picked a new character. Annoying

load more comments
view more: next ›