this post was submitted on 15 Jan 2025
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Privacy

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In an unexpected mask off "secure" email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton's services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let's collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here πŸ”πŸ‘‡

Always try to provide:

-Server location (jurisdiction)

-Governance

-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency

-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)

-Pricing and links

If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.

#ProtonExodus

Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116

Edit:typo

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 hours ago

Damn it my two year subscription just got refreshed...

[–] ShotDonkey 19 points 7 hours ago (3 children)

OK I think I will move to Posteo. Great security, privacy focussed, servers in Germany, running with 100% renewable energy. Prices are ok, too. Ticks all boxes.

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[–] JubilantJaguar 93 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (21 children)

Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.

The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he's not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.

There's nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:

  • Implying that the Democrats are now "the party of big business" is arguably true (and very boring)
  • Implying that the Republicans now "stand for the little guys" is dumb but also arguably true, unfortunately - the working classes swung to Trump in the recent election while the Democrats are fast becoming a party of high-earning elites (which is why they lost)
  • Saying that the antitrust actions began under Trump I is, well, true

Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It's controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.

PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it's not true that "Proton took the stance" of anything. It's the personal opinion of the CEO that's at issue. It's a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual's right to have their own thoughts.

PPS: to be extra clear, my comments are about the post above, not stuff that people are reading elsewhere. But the substance stands. See discussion for detail.

[–] CatsGoMOW 127 points 9 hours ago (8 children)

I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.

[–] [email protected] 53 points 9 hours ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (3 children)

Archives in case they delete it:

https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503

https://archive.is/lBQd8

Text copy of their post:


Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.

Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.

At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.

By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.

Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.

Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Just puked a little after reading that.

[–] errer 13 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Here’s what I don’t get: if the leadership at Proton believes this shit, why share it on social media at all? It clearly isn’t going to make anyone in the left happy. Are they trying to capture porn-loving MAGA?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 hours ago

Appeasement to the fascists so they don't get banned like they did to tiktok (I assume)

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[–] mean_bean279 70 points 9 hours ago (5 children)

I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.

This isn’t a β€œCEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.

I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.

Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?

[–] conicalscientist 26 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

Their bullet points are spin-doctoring.

Also the comment got a few dozen upvotes almost immediately. Suspicious.

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[–] jaggedrobotpubes 49 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (12 children)
  1. It isn't misinformation.

  2. Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn't covered by "opinion". No normalizing nazis. It's such a low bar. He couldn't clear it.

  3. He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn't being violated.

This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.

Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I'm not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Implying that the Democrats are now "the party of big business" is arguably true (and very boring)

While true in some scenarios, in anti-trust Lina khan's ftc has done significantly more than trump ever did. Biden keeping her over the protest of countless business execs and daily articles in the wall street journal on how she's ruining America shows some commitment to prosecuting big tech.

Meanwhile, trump's anti-trust moves were mostly based off petty issues he had with the ceos or the platforms having a "liberal bias". Now that every big tech ceo has fallen in line and given him $1 million for his inauguration I doubt we'll see much movement on that front.

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[–] [email protected] 142 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

Sigh.

Goddammit. I'm so fucking tired.

[–] [email protected] 67 points 10 hours ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Tweet is from early december. Why is it blowing up now?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 hours ago

I guess on the one hand people are anxious about Trumps inaugeration and on the other hand this is a great opportunity for competitors or otherwise opposed people to launch an astroturfing campaign off of it.

When looking at posts titled has gone "full MAGA" for saying they feel Trump is more likely to enact antitrust rules against big tech than Democrats who let them down the past years, is just absurd.

It is the same line of reasoning like claiming the WHO to have been a chinese asset because they supported some of Chinas anti-Covid measures.

[–] [email protected] 75 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

Wow!

Of all companies, this is one I didn't expect.

Damn.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 9 hours ago (3 children)

Why would this be unexpected?

Proton already handed over the IP of a climate protester to authorities several years ago, while boasting that they had a no log policy.

https://therecord.media/protonmail-forced-to-collect-an-activists-ip-address-in-police-investigation

Every time, in the past few years, that I bring this up, everyone just acts like I'm setting an impossible standard and no alternative exists.

Proton has been shady for years.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 9 hours ago

From reading that article it looks like they were only using and able to log the IP address when the person logged in to their protonmail account specifically - not VPN.

They even state that VPNs can not be forced to log under the same legal order and are treated differently so in this case it seems the activists were not using the VPN while accessing their emails.

Although I dont agree with even the logging of the email IP, it appears like the user shot themselves in the foot like that other case where someone used their real name in the username and that obviosly has to be logged in some way.

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital

[–] [email protected] 22 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

What's insane is that didn't Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?

Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation

[–] [email protected] 20 points 9 hours ago

Yea, and Andy Yen is only one of five members on the board of the Non-Profit organization, so you'll just have to gamble that everyone else isn't this weird (if you still want to continue using Proton services, that is, your choice πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ).

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[–] [email protected] 71 points 11 hours ago (3 children)

Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

If that proton goes nazi, I am going straight to the farm

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (3 children)

using services based on the ceo's political leaning instead of actual features and policies of that service? that's dumb, tell me when that political leaning reflects in polices of proton then we can talk

[–] rainerloeten 18 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (2 children)

I guess the assumption is that over time they inevitably will have an effect and people want to switch before that happens.

[–] Anonymouse 9 points 6 hours ago

You're both right. I'd do the same to jump ship before the enshitification sets in. Often, I've seen how innocuous policy and feature changes creep in and before you know it, the switching costs are too high.

I had an app on my phone and one day they removed the export function. I only used it for backing up my data but when they raised rates and started slamming with ads, I wanted to leave but could not take my data with me. I ended to just uninstalling and starring over elsewhere.

Also, this is exactly what happened to reddit. They cut the api first so it was harder to take your communities and saved stuff with you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 hours ago

why exactly is it inevitable? and why should we switch before it happens?

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Mullvad is supposed to be a safe and secure VPN.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

Unfortunately not a mail or storage provider.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

If this wasn't enough of a wakeupcall to not put all the eggs in one basket then what is? Companies are literally doing this to lock you into their service so it's harder to switch since you then have to find X new services instead of just one.

Better go with one that'd specialized for each service you need...

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 hours ago (6 children)

Before you decide to go back to Google or close your account, keep in mind that Proton became a non profit organization with the main mission of protecting your privacy. And as a non profit, they're not trying to profit off of you in any way.

Going back to Google is the worst solution you can use. Remember that Google donated $1 million to Trump's inauguration fund. Google also doesn't care about your privacy. On the contrary, they're selling your data and using it against you.

While the Proton CEO may be a nut case, he's only praising the choice that Trump made as the candidate for the antitrust department. While that's understandably stupid since I don't believe Trump is going up stick up for the little guy now that he's got Musk and Zuck in his pocket, at least he didn't actively donated and enabled Trump either personally or through his platform and spread misinformation.

Think about it.

At least with proton, the fact that you're different, that you're 2SLGBTQ+, is safe. Or at least substantially safer than Google.

[–] ShotDonkey 24 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

They have doubled down officially with their official Mastodon account https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503 I therefore consider this official opinion of Proton. Focussing on one aspect and completely ignoring the bigger picture of a luming fascist period in the most militarized economy of the world is just inacceptable. Proton just could have kept their mouth shut, but they decided not to.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 hours ago

This is extremely disappointing. :(

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

Why are there so many responses like this, saying not to go back to Google? The OP didn't even mention Google as an option they were considering. I've seen zero discussion in any of the other posts around the fediverse where people have expressed any desire to use Google because of this. Why would anyone think that users who had already moved to Proton would find Google acceptable as an alternative right now?

This just feels like you're trying to discourage actual conversation about alternatives by acting like the only options are Proton or Google, so we all ought to shut up and sit down.

Also, if you think merely becoming a non-profit means a corporation can never exploit people and isn't interested in making money off of it's customers, then I've got a bridge to sell you.

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