this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2024
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Can anyone succinctly explain communism? Everything I've read in the past said that the state owns the means of production and in practice (in real life) that seems to be the reality. However I encountered a random idiot on the Internet that claimed in communism, there is no state and it is a stateless society. I immediately rejected this idea because it was counter to what I knew about communism irl. In searching using these keywords, I came across the ideas that in communism, it does strive to be a stateless society. So which one is it? If it's supposed to be a stateless society, why are all real-life forms of communism authoritarian in nature?

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (6 children)

I think asking this question on a Lemmy.world community is a bit of a mistake. If you want an answer from Marxists, it would be better to ask it on an instance with more Marxists. As a consequence, there are numerous errors people have been making here that are a consequence of not really engaging with Marxist theory outside of Wikipedia definitions, the oversimplification of which has led to drastic errors in conclusions, the blind leading the blind.

Communism, for Marxists, would look like a Worldwide Republic with full Public Ownership and Central Planning. The issue you are runnung into is Marxist definition of the State. For Marxists, the State is an instrument of Class oppression. When you eliminate Classes, you so eliminate the State. Administration, planning, legal networks, etc would still exist without what Marx considered a "State" to be. Moreover, this is the fundamental difference between what Marxists want and what Anarchists want. From Engels, in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific:

The first act in which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society -- the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society -- is at the same time its last independent act as a state. The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then dies away of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not "abolished", it withers away. It is by this that one must evaluate the phrase "a free people's state" with respect both to its temporary agitational justification and to its ultimate scientific inadequacy, and it is by this that we must also evaluate the demand of the so-called anarchists that the state should be abolished overnight.

The reason it isn't instantaneous is because Marx and Engels believed Private Property could only truly be folded into the Public Sector once it had developed enough to be easily planned, and this happens at different rates across different industries, and to different degrees. The revolutionary aspect is still necessary and quite short-term, but once the Proletariat has siezed control the productive forces must be developed within the constraints of physical reality, ie you can't will the system or decree it into being fully publicly owned and centrally planned. It's a gradual process, but revolution is required up front because without it the Bourgeoisie maintain political power, and they need that power wrested from them before Socialism can even begin.

I highly recommend checking out my Introductory Marxist Reading List if you want to learn more, but feel free to ask any questions!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Maybe you can clarify for me, as I'm not knowlegeble in Marxism: When the state withers away, what is the central organisation called, that manages the means of production? I thought that would also be called functions of a state. Thanks

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

Engels calls it "the Administration of Things," I'd call it government. Really, the heart of the matter is that many people think Marx was advocating for decentralization, which does not logically follow from the rest of Marxism advocating for central planning and whatnot, leading to a weird misconception of a lot of centralization and somehow dissolving, which is evidently false.

We can think of it as a "State" remaining as long as we recontextualize what that means with respect to Marxism, the modern colloquial sense of a State would remain in an altered form is all.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Ah, so it is just a case of a specific definition of "state". What are the attributes of a state in that definition (as they do not include "the Administration of Things)? Goes totally against my intuition with that word

[–] [email protected] 4 points 20 hours ago

The state is fundamentally a tool of class oppression. Such aspects would include private property rights, and other enshrinements of class distinctions, which are gradually erased as property is collectivized. Additionally, aspects like policing would transform to be more akin to social workers as the economic reasons for crime would be dramatically minimized, things like that.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Seeing around this thread you clearly know your stuff. So it feels appropriate to reply to you with questions I have,

Somewhere in this thread one you thing you mentioned was the state/administration would have its exploitative elements removed and would just become an administrative and directive organization, slowly withering away. To me this feels contradictory, the same process that allow an organization to direct resources are surely the same process that allow an organization to exploit people?

I've probably failed to word that correctly, so to illustrate what I mean, the guy who control who gets what, can just say "do what I want or I'll deny you blah", now what the administrator wants can of course be influenced by money, like today's politicians, but I'm sure there are plenty of other things people want and could seek to gain - or even just the joy of controlling people.

I suppose you can have checks, but that feels like a band aid if you accept what I said early, the institution in power is inherently able to exploit people - all checks have done is make it more difficult.

To me this is not a consequence of the state/administration being exploitative, rather a consequence of the state having authority to control resource flow at all.

I always camped in the areas of anarchist leftism, but I'm interested to see what you think and I'm not well read enough to comment properly so I imagine there's a lot of mistakes in this reply so sorry in advance

I have more questions, but this is quite long already so I'll leave it here

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

No problem, thanks for asking! 🙂

One thing I think you're misreading is the State withering away. What we commonly think of as the "State," ie the entire public sector, government, administration, etc is not the same as what Marx calls the State. For Marx, the State is the elements of Government that contribute to Class oppression.

Before we can continue, we need to know what a "class" even is to begin with. Elsewhere in this thread, people make reference to something like a "planner class," but for Marx, no such thing exists. Rather, Classes are social relations with respect to ownership of the Means of Production and interaction with it. "Plumbers" are not a class, just like "managers" are not a class. The reason this is important, is because a classless society is one that holds all of the Means of Production in Common. In other words, full Public Ownership.

Circling back to the State, how does it "wither away?" The answer is that the Proletarian state, one dominated by the Proletariat and not the Bourgeoisie, gradually wrests from the Bourgeoisie its Capital with respect to the degree that it has developed. A Socialist revolution would not turn everything into Public Property instantly, markets and Capitalists would remain until the industries they govern develop enough that Public Ownership becomes more efficient and markets stagnate, ie monopolist phases where competition has run dry.

Since this is a gradual process, imagine every bit of Private Property wrested chips away at the State. The second Private Property reaches 0% and Public Property reaches 100%, there are no longer any classes, and thus no class to oppress. The "State" disappears, leaving only government, administration, and more behind.

As for the structural makeup of the socialist government, it would be most likely made up of "rungs," a local rung, a regional rung with representatives from each local rung, a provincial, national, international, etc rung, as many as needed and as few as necessary for proper Central Planning. What you describe as people being able to just "take advantage" of that could happen, Communism isn't some utopia of perfection, but such a society is far more resiliant as well as resistant to this than Capitalism, and more importantly builds up over time in a realistic manner.

Does that answer your question? Feel free to read from the reading list I linked earlier, also linked on my profile!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Thank you for such a great response and answer, although I feel I've sold my knowledge of leftist ideas a bit short since you have given me a introduction into all of it as well as your answer. But you did answer my question well so a follow up question, given that people could take advantage of the government in some sense, is it not a concern that new class styled system could take hold, one centered on favors from the central government.

Another question which is probably less boring than my last couple, is do Marxist want to see eventual end of all oppressive forces, not just class based. To that extent I would think having a central government would be incompatible since it would allow for some one to take advantage of their position.

Separately, I would think most people can solve their problems if given the means to do so, or the access to those with knowledge - is further centralization really the solution?

I'll take a skeptical look at your reading list. But you've given me some incredible insight into the ideas of Marxists, so thank you for that!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago

Sure, I'll take a crack at these!

For your first question, we have to question what it would mean to revert from full Public Ownership to some kind of Private Ownership. Such a method would require a revolution, to change hands from the global population to an elite few, but how would they do that? Communism is international, there's little need for an army at all at that point, and police would be replaced largely by social workers. Such an upbeaval of the status quo would require a massive upset.

If you mean from within the system, ie slowly boil the frog and peacefully remove all democracy, I would ask you to explain how that would happen given the democratic forces at play and overall economic basis being one requiring everyone in society to be able to participate to their fullest extent, as well as why, when such a system would be at relative abundance.

At earlier stages in development, ie Socialism, sort of? However, I reiterate, planning is not a class, it's a form of labor.

For your second question, I suppose I would say yes, Marxists don't believe Communism to be the "end." However, it is unlikely that such a system would move in favor of decentralization, as decentralization removes democratic input and paves the way for competition and markets to resurface into Capitalism. Engels' work Anti-Duhring is centered on such a concept, though it isn't on my reading list.

As for whether or not humanity will eventually move into a more Anarchist style, there's little to suggest so far that mass, complex industry will simplify itself to where there is a total reversion from full public Ownership and central planning to incredibly simplified individual ownership and planning. I won't say it's impossible, but new analysis within Communism would have to observe its trends and predict the next phase of society to be based on atomization and individualism, rather than mass cooperation.

Marx never "decided" that Socialism was good so it should happen, rather, Capitalism's natural tendency to centralize and teach society how to scale industry further and further and plan it meant Socialism was the next logical step. Such analysis would have to be done again, within Communism, and observe such phenomena to make it valid analysis.

Hope that helps!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The answer is that the Proletarian state, one dominated by the Proletariat and not the Bourgeoisie, gradually wrests from the Bourgeoisie its Capital with respect to the degree that it has developed.

How does one get a Proletarin state? It seems that any state would be susceptible to corruption & greed? It's what we have everywhere in the world.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Revolution is required to bring it about. You can observe the various successes and struggles faced by existing Socialist societies and historical Socialist societies to see what has worked and what hasn't quite worked for how to organize it.

Moreover, every system is going to be susceptible to corruption and greed, Socialism would be more resiliant against it due to focusing production on fulfilling needs, rather than profits as a rule.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

For Marxists, the state is the institution that tries to resolve, with violence, the contradictions that are inherent within class society. So when class society no longer exists, then violence is no longer necessary, hence the state is no longer necessary, hence "withering away".

This isn't an all or nothing situation, just a theory. The laws of uneven and combined development indicate that this withering would happen in different ways at different rates. this process wouldn't even begin until the whole world has become some form of socialism, and the social relations governing society would be much progressed. Its hard to imagine how this would work compared to our current situation

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 day ago

something that doesn't work, easy.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Communism is the struggle for a moneyless, stateless, classless society.

There's no connection between a supposed ideology of communism, and authoritarianism. The "authoritarianism" arose as a result of material circumstances, not ideology. I've looked into the histories a lot and its very complicated. Not like you wouldn't understand it, just that it can't be reduced to a simple truism, cant be made succinct.

Let's just say that the capitalists who hoard all the wealth and do nothing to earn millions and billions, who own the media and for whose benefit the state represents, aren't too keen on movements that sometimes overthrow them. So it's in their interests to paint socialism and communism in as bad a light as possible.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 3 days ago (8 children)

Motherfuckers really will downvote a non-stupid question on !nostupidquestions

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 3 days ago (2 children)

The confusion is between communism as an economic system and communism (more properly, Marxism-Leninism) as a political system.

Economically communism is a classless, stateless, society.

Most Marxist-Leninist states take the position that transitioning to that instantly is impossible, and you need to build the material conditions for it by transitioning through capitalism (be that state capitalism or some other form) to socialism to communism. The Communist Party of China for instance has a goal of achieving socialism by 2050.

That's a very simplified version anyway, and some (Trotskyists mostly) disagree that a transition period is necessary.

[–] JustAnIdiotPlsIgnore 15 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I see. So there is supposed to be an authoritarian state in the transitionary period, is what you are saying?

Interesting, I was under the impression the real life forms had just failed; one group got into power and just said "naw" and then stayed in that authoritarian 'state.'

[–] [email protected] 33 points 3 days ago (11 children)

Most attempts at communism so far have been from single party governments. Those trend quite quickly into authoritarianism regardless of the intent (you might get lucky with a long lived strong man with a deep ethical drive - aka Lenin) but chances are your single party will be coopted by an asshole.

Every time we've tried a communist government at a large scale we've really horribly failed but it has worked at smaller scales. It may be impossible beyond a limit like Dunbar's number but I think it's worth trying a few more times (especially if we can get the US to stop trying to constantly sabatoge it).

[–] trxxruraxvr 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

you might get lucky with a long lived strong man with a deep ethical drive - aka Lenin

Wouldn't call him especially long lived

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Your impression is basically the Trotskyist view.

Stalin himself answered your question in an interview with an American reporter some time ago.

Yes , you are right, we have not yet built communist society. It is not so easy to build such a society. You are probably aware of the difference between socialist society and communist society. In socialist society certain inequalities in property still exist. But in socialist society there is no longer unemployment, no exploitation, no oppression of nationalities. In socialist society everyone is obliged to work, although he does not, in return for his labour receive according to his requirements, but according to the quantity and quality of the work he has performed. That is why wages, and, moreover, unequal, differentiated wages, still exist. Only when we have succeeded in creating a system under which, in return for their labour, people will receive from society, not according to the quantity and quality of the labour they perform, but according to their requirements, will it be possible to say that we have built communist society.

You say that in order t o build our socialist society we sacrificed personal liberty and suffered privation.

Your question suggests that socialist society denies personal liberty. That is not true. Of course, in order to build something new one must economize, accumulate resources, reduce one's consumption for a time and borrow from others. If one wants to build a house one saves up money, cuts down consumption for a time, otherwise the house would never be built.

How much more true is this when it is a matter of building a new human society? We had to cut down consumption somewhat for a time, collect the necessary resources and exert great effort. This is exactly what we did and we built a socialist society.

But we did not build this society in order to restrict personal liberty but in order that the human individual may feel really free. We built it for the sake of real personal liberty, liberty without quotation marks. It is difficult for me to imagine what "personal liberty" is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.

Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/03/01.htm

[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Stalin talking about "no oppression" is quite ironic

[–] Deestan 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Easy: purge the oppressed!

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago

If there's nobody left to oppress, there is no oppression!

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (6 children)

Basically.

Most "Communist" countries practices Vanguardism, the idea of a "Vanguard Party" that is suppose to look out for the people, and act in the interest of the people, taking absolute control of the country, destroy capitalism and implement communism, then when communism is achieved, the state would naturally "wither away", ceasing to exist.

Yea... imagine how that works in practice. Once a party gets into power, they aint ever giving it up, thats the problem.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago

True even if your movement has pure intentions and is run mostly by capable idealists, which is rare in itself. Power corrupts.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 days ago

Pure Socialism is a society where resources are shared as equally as possible across all participants. Resources are distributed as appropriately as possible to create what is needed, excess is distributed with as little waste as possible. Communism has a centralized body to distribute these resources.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The end-goal is a stateless society. But you cannot achieve it if all other people are living in states, you need something that is of similar power. Hence it's a necessary step towards the end-goal which can only happen once everyone (or at least a significant portion of the world) is a communist. And that happens right after a unicorn rides across the sky while shooting rainbow and ice cream out of its ass.

As to why all communism is authoritarian, everyone who goes into politics is a authoritarian or an idealist. So the way it usually goes is either the authoritarian comes and explains to everyone that they're communist, or the idealist convinces everyone of the idea and then his colleagues slowly swap them out for the authoritarian, because they're usually the one actually capable of running a country.

In other words, to have a successful ideal communism everyone on Lemmy has a hard-on for, you need an unsevered chain of idealist leaders who are also capable of running a country. To achieve the authoritarian version of communism, you need only one authoritarian leader anywhere in the chain. I think everyone can guess which one's easier and more likely.

In conclusion, communism can never exist on a large scale as long as people are in power. The only possibility of communism I can see is far in the future when we have true AI (not the current bullshit machines) which rules over us without any possibility of humans altering its decisions. Not sure how likely that is, but at least it's theoretically achievable.

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[–] Deestan 17 points 3 days ago

The notion of "state" differs wildly across people, so that probably adds to the confusion.

The core concept is that ownership of a thing belongs to the people of the thing. This is where it clashes with feudalism and capitalism, where ownership of e.g. a farm is not held by the farm workers.

The organizational unit is "group of people cooperating", or a "commune". This can be small, like a hippie farm, or it can be big - a traditional state.

A democratic state can be communist if it forbids private ownership of common resources. I.e. your house is your house and your car is your car but some rich fuck can't decide to build a fence around the local hiking trail.

An authoritarian state may technically be communist if it is strongly democratic. That is theoretical. The ones currently claiming communism are dictatorships.

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