It's pretty easy for the alt-right if men are constantly attacked and branded as "the problem". How are you going to persuade somebody by starting with "you're the problem", "check your privilege", "#AllYourGroup", and so on? It's like walking up to a Christian and shouting "God doesn't exist!", "Your belief is killing us all!", "Religion is cancer, how can you believe in it?", etc.
this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2024
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Counterpoint: people don't know how to sit with being uncomfortable anymore. The patriarchy still exists, and the only people that can dismantle it are men because they hold the institutional power to do so. These alt-right "influencers" have learned how to take advantage of the fact that these young men don't want to put the work in to make the women around them feel safe.
The reasons for being uncomfortable lead to the actions taken when uncomfortable. It's like going to the doctor and feeling "pressure" which can range from a slight jab of the finger to find out where it hurts to having your elbow being shoved back into your socket. In this case, being aware of issues, wanting to be part of the solution and feeling welcome is very different from being called the problem, regardless of background and intentions, and being treated as an enemy that has to be subdued. Two very different types of "discomfort".
The patriarchy still exists, and the only people that can dismantle it are men because they hold the institutional power to do so.
I disagree. Just like with climate change, politics, pollution and so much more, there is rarely (if ever) one single point in the system that has power to change it. The majority gives in to the system, then blames it without trying to change themselves first. Women make up ~50% of the population and will consistently vote candidates who do not represent their interests. The same goes for ecologists, left-wingers, anti-establishment types, anti-corporation voters, and so on. We are, at heart, short-sighted, tribal egoists unable to comprehend the power we hold in numbers. Instead tearing each other down while the rich few can control us in our disarray.
These alt-right "influencers" have learned how to take advantage of the fact that these young men don't want to put the work in to make the women around them feel safe.
This is exactly what I'm talking about in my first paragraph. A sweeping, condescending generalization about young men that paints them lazy, disinterested, and dumb. Do you really that's how you win over anybody? Do you think if I said "hey, princessnorah, you lack the mental capacity to comprehend my words, but that's OK, you're a woman, so I'll spell it out for you" that would be a good start to a discussion? Probably not. So why do you think it's the right approach to convince young men?
The patriarchy hurts everyone, and everyone is allowed to try and dismantle it. Don't call men lazy because they won't destroy capitalism for you, everyone needs to help out.
It really saddens me how this community has been hijacked by people like you, when on the subreddit you would have rightfully been told why you're wrong by other men. I wish you all the best, but please learn to grow.
I don't agree with your sentiment, but I do think men struggle to find ways to help each other understand these issues.
Counter counterpoint: patriarchy never existed, the rich always controled the poor. The alt-right "influencers" are a bunch of rich brat, thats' it. Poor men are despised by rich men since they are considered "weak" and by most women since most women bundle all the male species together. These douchebag rethoric aren't new, they just found a new megaphone (tiktok, ytshort, ...)
most rape are done by someone known to the victim, yet you don't fear your friend/family. But the nobody male behind you should know you are terrified by him being around.
...yet you don't fear your friend/family.
I've been sexually assaulted multiple times in my life by people I knew, so no, you'd be wrong, I do fear those I know. I'm a woman with disabilities, and I refuse to work with cis male support workers for this very reason. But go ahead and assume you know more than a woman, that will sure prove your point that patriarchy never existed.
I think there's a void for masculinity and these people are just exploiting it.
Yep
I’m more and more realizing that left wing politics and non-toxic masculinity have a communication problem more than anything.
The right wing politicians near me are putting up angry YouTube videos every few days. They don’t promise any real solutions, but they say “we hear your pain, support us and we’ll support you”, and to a lot of struggling people that’s all they need to hear to support them.
For traditional masculinity, when I was younger I did have to try and figure that meant in my world. In todays world you hear a lot about toxic masculinity and how awful the patriarchy is, and for young not rich men it just sounds exclusionary. Then you have influencers like Tate going around saying it’s okay to want fast cars and be “manly”, and that society is forgetting you, so you need to grab what you can. Unfortunately his version of manliness is frankly weak and vapid and sexist, but he’s the only one teaching young men who are struggling.
The algorithms and hours of social media the average person browses daily make this so much worse, but we need more people just reaching out and acknowledging the pain people are feeling, and only then can we start building each other back up in a healthy way.
It's difficult to persuade people to your lifestyle, and your point of view, if you'r starting position is that their brainwashed if they don't agree with you.
Honestly, I’m not sure it’s a matter of persuasion. It’s a personal growth impairment they will have to resolve for themselves.
All young men have a version of this. It’s a shame it’s being encouraged by grifters, but what can you do.
I'm confused, you down vote me, meaning I didn't contribute to the discussion to your standard, but you provided a thoughtful comment.
Hostility isn't a great way to build dialog.
Your contributions to this thread seem to be very grievance-focused. In the context of this topic, that seems relevant.
Is it something you wish to discuss?
If we want people to behave differently we would find more success by not starting with the premise they are brainwashed. That is my thesis.
What about "tricked"? Or calling men currently in the grifter cycle a "mark"
You have been tricked, you have been conned - Both statements put people on the back foot.
It's more persuasive to talk about what objectives and outcomes people want, and advocate for the best path to getting those outcomes. Jumping to a interpretive conclusion is the rhetorically going up hill, because you haven't communicated and persuaded the other party to arrive at the conclusion organically.
Depends on who you're talking to. For people who are egotistical and lack introspection, I agree with you. For people who are humble and critical of their own thoughts and behavior, then being blunt can be helpful because it initiatives the cognitive dissonance.
Unfortunately, the Gen Z'ers who are falling for this manosphere bullshit are likely egotistical, so may be it would be better to not be blunt. These guys obviously don't do to well with cognitive dissonance; hence why they'd rather believe that cisgendered "manly" men are the victims rather than accept a different (and more correct) model of reality.
I agree with this article, but raising a son I think there's also something to be said for raising a boy in an environment that tells him he's dangerous, a potential rapist, an abuser, and blames him for all the ills men have committed on women through history. I can see how that can make a boy become resentful and shoot to the opposite.
Men are also hyper aware of how they're seen and we have to cross the street to not be perceived as following someone or being a creep. We have to change subway cars when we're the only one there with women. Or we have to constantly reassure people we're not pro rape or anti women. It gets very tiring having to prove to strangers every day that you're not a wild animal who is gonna kill you. Being a big guy, it sucks being looked at as a threat 24/7.
I'm 6'3" covered in scars and tattoos. I'm reminded on a daily basis that I'm "terrifying" to most women just because of the way I look.
It's lonely.
"A real man takes care of everyone" pretty good shit. It gets a little preachy after that though. Kinda weird they're making demands of men after divulging they're nonbinary but amab I guess.
Men need to be taught that the riches and success they were promised by people born before the 1970's was stolen from them from current billionaire class. But they'll have to learn it when they lose social security and healthcare. Tough break, I was rooting for them there for a while.
Nonbinary folks are in a unique position to comment on the definition of "being a man" or "being a woman".
I imagine that it is kinda like asking a person who is mixed race (white and black) about their view on racism in America. At some point in time, a mixed race person finds a way to reconcile the cognitive dissonance that occurs when discussing race, since they have family members they love on both sides of the spectrum.
You say that as if mixed race people aren't routinely ostracized by both sides of their mix.
Except they're not. They're not men or women, hence the term "non-binary".
This is precisely what puts them in a unique perspective.
Kinda weird they’re making demands of men after divulging they’re nonbinary
What's weird?
making demands of men
Still don't get it.
I think they're trying to imply that amab non-binary people are actually just men. Isn't it weird how afab non-binary people are allowed to just exist, while amab NBs seemingly have to constantly prove themselves? :(
There is a lot of hope for Gen-Z. I pray that we are good influences on them