this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024
241 points (98.4% liked)

Today I Learned

18056 readers
13 users here now

What did you learn today? Share it with us!

We learn something new every day. This is a community dedicated to informing each other and helping to spread knowledge.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must begin with TIL. Linking to a source of info is optional, but highly recommended as it helps to spark discussion.

** Posts must be about an actual fact that you have learned, but it doesn't matter if you learned it today. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.**



Rule 2- Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding non-TIL posts.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-TIL posts using the [META] tag on your post title.



Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.

If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.

For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.

Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.



Partnered Communities

You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.

Community Moderation

For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

The Haitian independence debt involves an 1825 agreement between Haiti and France that included France demanding an indemnity of 150 million francs in five annual payments of 30 million to be paid by Haiti in claims over property – including Haitian slaves – that was lost through the Haitian Revolution in return for diplomatic recognition. Haiti was forced to take a loan for the first 30 million,[a] and in 1838 France agreed to reduce the remaining debt to 60 million to be paid over 30 years, with the final payment paid in 1883.[1][2][b] However, The New York Times estimates that because of other loans taken to pay off this loan, the final payment to debtors was actually in 1947. They approximated that in total 112 million francs was paid in indemnity, which when adjusted for the inflation rate would be $560 million in 2022, but considering that if had been invested in the Haitian economy instead, it could be valued at $115 billion.[4][5][c]

Restoration France's demand of payments in exchange for recognizing Haiti's independence was delivered to the country by several French warships in 1825, twenty-one years after Haiti's declaration of independence in 1804.[7][8] Despite several revolutions in France after that date (July Revolution, French Revolution of 1848, Paris Commune), successive governments, be they imperial, monarchist or republican, continued enforcing the debt and coercing Haiti to pay.[d] Haiti had to take a loan in 1875 to pay back the final portion of the original loan, and the bank that benefited most from this was Crédit Industriel et Commercial.[9] Even after the indemnity was paid, Haiti had to continue paying the other loans, and the government of the United States funded the acquisition of Haiti's treasury in 1911,[10] and in 1922, the rest of Haiti's debt was moved to be paid to American investors.[11] The New York Times states that it took until 1947 for Haiti to finally pay off all the associated interest to the National City Bank of New York (now Citibank).[10][12] In 2016, the Parliament of France repealed the 1825 ordinance of Charles X, though no reparations have been offered by France.[5] These debts have been denounced by some historians and activists as responsible for Haiti's poverty today and a case of odious debt.[3]

top 19 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] FlyingSquid 52 points 2 months ago (2 children)

There is one slightly amusing part- Napoleon was so butthurt about Haiti that he said "fuck it" to all of North America and that's how the U.S. ended up doubling its size through the Louisiana Purchase.

And if anyone owes a debt to anyone, France owes it to Haiti.

[–] someguy3 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I always heard he needed the money for his European ambitions.

[–] FlyingSquid 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Maybe, although I can't believe that France wasn't making a ton of money already considering they controlled all traffic down the Mississippi and American farmers didn't really have a better route to send their crops.

For what it's worth, my daughter is doing this specific part of history in social studies this week and her book said that Napoleon decided to give up on France in North America because after Haitian independence, he didn't think it was worth it.

[–] someguy3 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Some other wiki reading:

Napoleon needed peace with Britain to take possession of Louisiana [from Spain]. Otherwise, Louisiana would be an easy prey for a potential invasion from Britain or the U.S. But in early 1803, continuing war between France and Britain seemed unavoidable. On March 11, 1803, Napoleon began planning an invasion of Great Britain.[15][16]

In Saint-Domingue, Leclerc's forces took Louverture prisoner, but their expedition soon faltered in the face of fierce resistance and disease. By early 1803, Napoleon decided to abandon his plans to rebuild France's New World empire. Without sufficient revenues from sugar colonies in the Caribbean, Louisiana had little value to him. Spain had not yet completed the transfer of Louisiana to France, and war between France and the UK was imminent. Out of anger towards Spain and the unique opportunity to sell something that was useless and not truly his yet, Napoleon decided to sell the entire territory.[17]

[–] someguy3 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I was under the impression that there wasn't much farming at the time in that region. Nothing like the population today. It was mostly fur trapping.

Also in the event of a war, they have to consider if they could defend it. So the expense to try to defend it and probably lose it anyway, or some cash right now.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] someguy3 16 points 2 months ago

a slave revolt at the colony beginning in 1791 that led to the successful Haitian Revolution in 1804 frightened those living in the Southern United States who supported slavery, raising fears that it would inspire other slaves.[7][10] Such sentiments among wealthy slaveholding Americans strained relations between the United States and Haiti, with the United States initially refusing to recognize Haitian independence while slaveholders advocated for a trade embargo with the newly created Caribbean nation.[10] The Haiti indemnity controversy – which France forced upon Haiti through gunboat diplomacy in 1825 due to France's financial loss following Haiti's independence – resulted with Haiti using much of its revenue to pay debt to foreign nations by the late-1800s.[11]

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The Hati revolution was a beautiful example of revolution bringing about an end to colonialism and slavery.

And their capitalist regional power (that still haven't abolished slavery to this day) has done everything they can to punish them for it

[–] rsuri 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

was ~~a beautiful~~ an example

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

IMF stopping in here. Good job France! Couldn’t have done it better!

I’ve gotta go sign up some more countries for predatory loans and strangle some economies. Tootles!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

China has entered the chat.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You mean that they aren't just cursed for having made a deal with demons? /s

Though that is a shitty thing that I heard on American (religious) TV 20 years ago. Poison to understanding & compassion.

[–] deltapi 2 points 2 months ago

It's an apt metaphor for the truth though, isn't it?

[–] DaMonsterKnees 3 points 2 months ago

Super tough Vicky 3 scenario. One of my faves. Great share, thanks!

[–] Iceblade02 2 points 2 months ago

It's certainly interesting to read about the contrast between how Haiti & the Dominican Republic developed during the time period - particularly since both were in a similarly empoverished state at the middle of the 20th century.