this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2024
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submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by lwadmin to c/lemmyworld
 

Intro

We would like to address some of the points that have been raised by some of our users (and by one of our communities here on Lemmy.World) on /c/vegan regarding a recent post concerning vegan diets for cats. We understand that the vegan community here on Lemmy.World is rightfully upset with what has happened. In the following paragraphs we will do our best to respond to the major points that we've gleaned from the threads linked here.

Links


Actions in question

Admin removing comments discussing vegan cat food in a community they did not moderate.

The comments have been restored.

The comments were removed for violating our instance rule against animal abuse (https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#11-attacks-on-users). Rooki is a cat owner himself and he was convinced that it was scientific consensus that cats cannot survive on a vegan diet. This originally justified the removal.

Even if one of our admins does not agree with what is posted, unless the content violates instance rules it should not be removed. This was the original justification for action.

Removing some moderators of the vegan community

Removed moderators have been reinstated.

This was in the first place a failure of communication. It should have been clearly communicated towards the moderators why a certain action was taken (instance rules) and that the reversal of that action would not be considered (during the original incident).

The correct way forward in this case would have been an appeal to the admin team, which would have been handled by someone other than the admin initially acting on this.

We generally discuss high impact actions among team before acting on them. This should especially be the case when there is no strong urgency on the act performed. Since this was only a moderator removal and not a ban, this should have been discussed among the team prior to action.

Going forward we have agreed, as a team, to discuss such actions first, to help prevent future conflict

Posting their own opposing comment and elevating its visibility

Moderators' and admins' comments are flagged with flare, which is okay and by design on Lemmy. But their comments are not forced above the comments of other users for the purpose of arguing a point.

These comments were not elevated to appear before any other users comments.

In addition, Rooki has since revised his comments to be more subjective and less reactive.


Community Responses

The removed comments presented balanced views on vegan cat food, citing scientific research supporting its feasibility if done properly.

Presenting scientifically backed peer reviewed studies is 100% allowed, and encouraged. While we understand anyone can cherry pick studies, if a individual can find a large amount of evidence for their case, then by all accounts they are (in theory) technically correct.

That being said, using facts to bully others is not in good faith either. For example flooding threads with JSTOR links.

The topic is controversial but not clearly prohibited by site rules.

That is correct, at the time there was no violation of site wide rules.

Rooki's actions appear to prioritize his personal disagreement over following established moderation guidelines.

Please see the above regarding addressing moderator policy.


Conclusions

Regarding moderator actions

We will not be removing Rooki from his position as moderator, as we believe that this is a disproportionate response for a heat-of-the-moment response.

Everybody makes mistakes, and while we do try and hold the site admin staff to a higher standard, calling for folks resignation from volunteer positions over it would not fair to them. Rooki has given up 100's of hours of his free time to help both Lemmy.World, FHF and the Fediverse as a whole grown in far reaching ways. You don't immediately fire your staff when they make a bad judgment call.

While we understand that this may not be good enough for some users, we hope that they can be understanding that everyone, no matter the position, can make mistakes.

We've also added a new by-laws section detailing the course of action users should ideally take, when conflict arises. In the event that a user needs to go above the admin team, we've provided a secure link to the operations team (who the admin's report to, ultimately). See https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/#12-site-admin-issues-for-community-moderators for details.

TL;DR In the event of an admin action that is deemed unfair or overstepping, moderators can raise this with our operations team for an appeal/review.

Regarding censorship claims

Regarding the alleged censorship, comments were removed without a proper reason. This was out of line, and we will do our best to make sure that this does not happen again. We have updated our legal policy to reflect the new rules in place that bind both our user AND our moderation staff regarding removing comments and content. We WANT users to hold us accountable to the rules we've ALL agreed to follow, going forward. If members of the community find any of the rules we've set forth unreasonable, we promise to listen and adjust these rules where we can. Our terms of service is very much a living document, as any proper binding governing document should be.

Controversial topics can and should be discussed, as long as they are not causing risk of imminent physical harm. We are firm believers in the hippocratic oath of "do no harm".

We encourage users to also list pros and cons regarding controversial viewpoints to foster better discussion. Listing the cons of your viewpoint does not mean you are wrong or at fault, just that you are able to look at the issue from another perspective and aware of potential points of criticism.

While we want to allow our users to express themselves on our platform, we also do not want users to spread mis-information that risks causing direct physical harm to another individual, origination or property owned by the before mentioned. To echo the previous statement "do no harm".

To this end, we have updated our legal page to make this more clear. We already have provisions for attacking groups, threatening individuals and animal harm, this is a logical extension of this to both protect our users and to protect our staff from legal recourse and make it more clear to everyone. We feel this is a very reasonable compromise, and take these additional very seriously.

See Section 8 Misinformation

Sincerely,
FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team


EDIT: Added org operations contact info

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[–] BigBenis 30 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Seems like a reasonable conclusion to me. Thank you for communicating as well as for your time and effort spent handling this in a careful and mature way.

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[–] RandomGuy79 30 points 2 months ago

Lunatic vegans on lemmy? No way dude

[–] [email protected] 29 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Appreciate how you handled this, but denying a carnivore an appropriate diet is definitely animal abuse.

[–] kerrigan778 20 points 2 months ago

I think discussing the emerging field of plant based and synthetic replication of a carnivores diet using real research is pretty clear cut not animal abuse just because it can be animal abuse if not done carefully and because you say so. (Also, I'm not a vegan and I have never fed my cat vegan food, you guys are just obnoxious though)

[–] BackOnMyBS 29 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I love the compassionate intervention that allows @[email protected] the opportunity to learn and correct his behaviors and models that level of compassion. Thank you very much! 😊

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[–] nl4real 27 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Can you people trying to restart the original argument take that shit elsewhere? This is a discussion about how to approach moderation.

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[–] auzy 26 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I've heard evidence that it was a fairly toxic community there anyway.

We should be careful to avoid creating communities that are echo chambers. Ie, it should be a community discussing veganism, not a vegan safe space where people abuse you if you disagree

Otherwise, in 5 years time you end to with scenarios similar to reddit or on beehaw

I left beehaw because I half agreed with the community, someone in a "safe space" abused me, and a beehaw admin overlooked that abuse and instead insisted I was starting a flight (simply because I didn't 100% agree with the community it seemed)

We also risk scenarios where vaping or drug communities could grow and become toxic in the same way. We also should be as scientific as possible and avoid becoming Facebook.

I'm not sure about the cat thing, but to me, it seems like it could at least be used as animal abuse

[–] Zonetrooper 17 points 2 months ago

We should be careful to avoid creating communities that are echo chambers.

I'm afraid that ship is already sailed, foundered, and is well on the way to the bottom in a lot of communities.

When it comes to spicy topics, many communities on Lemmy feel incredibly close-minded and hostile to opposing views.

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[–] dohpaz42 25 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I have a question: what is the FHF? Searching that acronym without context leads to what appears to be unrelated organizations.

[–] jelloeater85 24 points 2 months ago

FediHosting Foundation, it's our parent non profit.

[–] givesomefucks 25 points 2 months ago (2 children)

What's crazy is all the admins had to do was look at that subs modlog prior to the controversy to see this was all most likely a troll:

https://lemmy.world/modlog/1309?page=3&actionType=ModRemoveComment

That mod team doesn't give two shits about "free speech".

Let them migrate to their own instance, changing all of lemmy.world's rules and making all those sticky threads is about as much as you could feed a troll.

[–] TeoTwawki 23 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Wow that modlog is pretty eye opening, big echo chamber vibes.

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[–] nandeEbisu 24 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I'm glad you're sticking to your guns on this. At the end of the day, it should NOT be up to the admin team who are not subject matter experts to determine what is and is not considered "truth" especially in cases where there is still active research on the topic.

I also can totally see how this topic can elicit a knee jerk reaction, because people have been known to put animals on vegan diets irresponsibly, but we don't block people from posting "chonkers" or obese cats which is literally the same thing where people will often intentionally overfeed their cats for this aesthetic which is also clearly abuse in the exact same vein.

I also think its a good thing you reinstated the admin after some reflection and a well thought out response and statement. It doesn't seem like they are on some crazy power trip either.

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[–] Lime66 24 points 2 months ago (78 children)

The comments were removed for violating our instance rule against animal abuse

The comments have been restored

What... So the rules don't matter if enough people get angry, I see

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[–] SloganLessons 24 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I’m not involved with the original drama - nor do I want to entertain it to begin with - but good on you guys for being transparent

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Why don't they just make their own instance?

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago

this is a welcome post, i was a little worried what this was going to be like, but you didn't manage to cannibalize yourselves over it so thats good.

Regardless the internet wouldn't be the internet with stupid squabbles like this one.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I was reading through the Section 8 Misinformation, there seems to be a typo:

We always recomend that users

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The mods at the lemmy world vegan community don't see things the same way. From this post:

"Today the lemmy.world admins made a follow up post about the incident where the admin Rooki interfered with moderation of this community in a way which was determined to be against lemmy.world TOS and factually incorrect. Throughout this incident there has been no communication with me, nor to my knowledge any of of the other moderators of this community. Rooki quitely undid his actions and edited his post to admit fault however there was no public acknowledgement of this from him. In fact I wasn’t even told I was reinstated as a mod which is quite funny."

"The lemmy.world admins’ response appears more focused on managing their own reputations and justifying similar actions in the future than providing a good environment for vegans, and other similarly maligned groups. Their statements about wanting to handle misinformation and overreach better in the future ring a bit hollow when they won’t take actions to address the anti-vegan circlejerks under their update posts which abound with misinformation and disinformation."

"The legalese written basically allows for the same thing to happen, and that if it does the admin decision is to stand while moderators have to quietly resolve the conflict at the admins’ leisure. Presumably with a similarly weak public apology and barely visible record correction after the fact."

Codified anti-vegan bias based on reactionary views? That's unfortunate. Glad I'm not on that instance.

[–] krashmo 18 points 2 months ago (8 children)

I suppose it's good to take any opportunity to clarify moderation policies but... all this over cat food? Jesus Christ people, have some perspective. Not every topic needs to devolve into a debate about free speech and censorship.

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[–] ninth_plane 18 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for the continued work in maintaining a community!

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[–] Asidonhopo 17 points 2 months ago (2 children)
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