linuxmemes

My bank used to complain that my browser was out of date. I wrote an email to customer service explaining to them that:

A) debian's "out of date" browser actually includes all up to date security patches. B) simply reading the browser agent isnt really security. I had simply been spoofing my browser agent to get around their silly browser "security" policy

They removed the browser check 2 weeks later. Not sure if it was because of me

OP when they try Debian and it's exactly what it advertises itself as:

You are literally describing the idea of Debian. Yes, stable is old, but that is the whole purpose. You get (mostly) security updates only for a few years. No big updates, no surprises. Great for stuff like company PCs, servers, and other systems you want to just work™ with minimal admin work.

And testing is, well, for testing. Ironing out bugs and preparing the next stable. Although what you describes sounds more like unstable, the one where they explicitly say that they will break stuff to try out other stuff.

So, everything works as intended and advertised here. If you want a different approach to stability, I guess you will have to use a different distro, sorry.

I guess when you last tried it, it was at a time when a new stable came out, so testing was more or less equal to stable.

About the firefox: It ships Firefox ESR these days, meaning you get an older, less often updated tested firefox (with security updates, of course). Again, this is the whole point. Less updates, less admin work, more time to find and fix bugs. Remember the whole Quantum add-on mess, for example?

As others have said, you can install other versions of firefox (like the "normal" one) via flatpak, snap... nowadays. The same goes for other software, where you would need the newest and shiniest version sooner. I'm using debian on my work/uni laptop and a bunch of servers, and it works pretty well for me.

As everybody else has said, Debian is working as intended. To respond to the actual post though, Debian is working exactly as it always has.

If you think Debian used to be good, you must really love it now. It is better than ever.

Unlike in the past, the primary drawback of Debian Stable ( old package versions ) has multiple viable solutions. Other have rightly pointed out things like the Mozilla APT package and Flatpaks. Great solutions.

My favourite solution is to install Arch via Distrobox. You can then get all the stability of Debian everywhere you need it and, anytime you need additional packages or newer packages, you can install them in the Arch distrobox. Firefox is a prime candidate. You are not going to get newer packages or a greater section than via he Arch repos / AUR ( queue Nix rebuttals ).

Kali: I have no such weakness!

trips and falls on postgres upgrade

Ehm... im using debian stable, no website is telling me to update Firefox (I'm on deb 10, 11 and 12 in different PCs).

Deb 12, my home computer, is on unstable and running smoothly.

Debian isn't "just works" but "it's a freaking rock" + "open source hardcore philosophy".

Maybe I got lucky?

It got better, that's what happened. You're using Firefox ESR, it's not unsafe.

Mozilla also provides a Deb repo for Debian and its derivatives: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/install-firefox-linux#w_install-firefox-deb-package-for-debian-based-distributions

I manage over 40 Debian clients in production use. All are managed with ansible. It's the easiest time in my sysadmin time ever.

My own systems are fedora and Debian unstable. Why? Because I test upcoming changes and features. And think how it would be if all 40 clients run on unstable or fedora, every day updates of 20-60 packages for nothing the user would care about.

Debian stable is my hero.

Debian's Firefox is Firefox ESR, or Extended Support Release. It's behind the bleeding edge, but gets security updates.

If you want the bleeding edge Firefox, you can add Mozilla's own APT repository and install it. Doesn't even conflict with Debian (firefox-esr vs firefox, it even uses a separate user profile by default). Instructions are on the Firefox download page somewhere.

Debian is working as intended. You are wanting to use Ubuntu or Mint if you want more up to date packages.

Debian is as great as it's ever been.

For me, the outdated packages in stable have actually gotten better over time, as DEs get closer to a place where I don't need any major updates to enjoy using them, Flatpaks become more readily available, and on a subjective level, I get less and less invested in current Linux news. Before Debian became my "forever distro", I'd hopped to it a few times, and often found myself wishing for a newer piece of software that wasn't in backports or flathub, or simply being bored with how stable it is, but that's been happening less and less. And I feel like Debian 12 in particular left me with software that I wouldn't mind being stuck with for two years.

I've gotten warnings to upgrade my browser with Debian's Firefox ESR, but they never affected a website's usability in a way that a newer version would fix, and they do provide security updates and new ESR series when they come out; even if you must have the newest Firefox, you can use the Flatpak.

Additionally, I'm currently on testing in order to get better support for my GPU, and each time I've tried to use it, it's worked for me for a longer time than the last as I get better at resolving or avoiding broken packages. If you do experience issues like the one you described, and can replicate them, and no one else has already reported them, you should report them to Debian's bug tracker. The whole point of Testing is to find and squash all the critical bugs before the next stable releases.

These days I care a lot less that a package is outdated than I do it being unstable personally. If security concerns are getting patched and it is still doing what I want it to do, I couldn't care less about UI elements getting moved around just to make some PM happy.

Debian Stable ± Flatpak gets best of both worlds

What's why we have NixOS. The unstable channel is more stable than most other distros and when it's not, you just roll back

I use debian headless as a server never had any issues but then again pretty much any linux system is gonna be a decent server since everything is containerised now.

Stable is for servers, unstable for desktop. It has worked for 20 years. I actually installed two further Debian workstations recently after trying and failing with Kubuntu. So .... no, I don't have this problem.

No idea why busybox is needed. Is this is your emergency boot environment like initramfs? Sometimes it's nice that Linux boots up and offers an environment to fix stuff while some modules are broken.

Debian stable and flatpaks, I don't see all the fuss

You can install Firefox from Mozilla's own repository. It is a luxury to have in Debian a Mozilla repository to install Firefox.

TL;DR

You want Debian stable with either back ports or containers. On desktop flatpak is your friend. Also do not add extra repos.

Honestly there is little reason to not use flatpak for web browsers. If you want packages from Fedora or other distros you can use Distrobox with podman as the back end.

Never had issues due to 'outdated' packages myself, but then again, I wasn't into the latest & greatest.

I mean, you're always free to choose something else instead of bitching.

Arch is where the cool kids put in the work these days. Their philosophy of downstream packages untouched results in fewer problems and easier maintenance. Why would anyone be a package maintainer for Debian? It's a thankless task, and hard

Sounds like you need to be using slackware.

Debian testing is complelty okay. If you want to have the most up to date security use apt to grab sid security updates. https://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting

Just use the Mozilla .deb

Huh? Install testing or sid?

The Debian way is to install stable then change your sources.list to either testing or unstable.

I call shenanigans.

edit: what version was Stable using before 11Jun? 'cause it's 115.12.0esr-1 right now.

I have been using unstable on desktop for at least 15 years. Every time a new stable was released that would cause a month of just staying off updates till things stabilized. Recently it's not even had that issue.

I've had to pin a package or two in that time, but unstable has been rock solid otherwise. I even run it on my server.