this post was submitted on 27 Apr 2024
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[–] [email protected] 154 points 1 month ago (11 children)

lol. No they aren’t.

Seriously, windows is about to release forced advertisements in the Start Menu. Windows 12 is going to be a shit show. People aren’t going to flock to Linux, they’re going to Apple. Think they have a lot of money now? Wait until they get more desktop market. They can afford to build another garden.

Say what you want about Apple, it’s probably true. But don’t pretend they don’t have gardens inside gardens.

The only way Apple will fall is if there is actual competition, and nothing is on the horizon.

[–] [email protected] 86 points 1 month ago (6 children)

The number of people who will leave windows over this stuff is trivial.

Apple has practically zero presence in enterprise (where one company can have 60,000 computers), and also practically zero in SMB.

Business software is written for windows. Even trying to use a Mac with the most basic office software is challenging - even if the exact same product exists in both.

People aren't flocking anywhere when their work machines are windows. Damn few people can be bothered with learning 2 ways to do things, especially when they're not interested in computing. I've been at this since before Mac existed, and while I can use OSX or iOS, I'm not wasting my limited learning time on something I rarely use, and can't really integrate with much of the rest I use.

Now let's look at some other arenas:

Legal - they all use a small set of document apps (which until recently was wordperfect), and some legal database apps. None of the database apps run on Mac as far as I've seen.

Engineering - there are practically no CAD apps for Mac. Some do exist, but again, even the ones that are on both Windows and Mac are problematic at best on Mac, typically unable to integrate with the back end.

Most people don't have the bandwidth to learn a new system just to avoid the shitty part of Windows (which only affects home users anyway). It takes less effort/time to figure out how to mitigate the Windows issues than to deal with a completely new system, that will also have issues integrating with other stuff they already have.

[–] cm0002 41 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Apple has practically zero presence in enterprise

And they're not even trying as far as I'm concerned. Windows is dead easy to integrate something like device management software into or tie into central authentication or all sorts of enterprise goodies.

Apples enterprise software and integration is complete and utter trash. The it just works "magic" only applies to consumer things, the magic is gone the second you even think about doing anything remotely enterprise.

Got an Active Directory you want to integrate macOS with? Good luck. Want to use an apple alternative instead because you think it'll be better? Better get a time machine. Device management? Better get ready to jump through hoop after hoop for a maybe half working solution.

I always say, Windows is an enterprise OS with consumer features and MacOS is a consumer OS with (half assed) enterprise "features".

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yea, Apple very briefly started making effort to support enterprise in the 90's, but quickly gave up the effort. I don't remember it well, it may have been related to the PowerPC stuff they were doing with IBM (IBM dropped their support of the PowerPC project, unfortunately).

Windows is an enterprise OS with consumer features and MacOS is a consumer OS with (half assed) enterprise "features".

Wow, I've been in IT for a long time, and this is the best way I've ever seen to describe the difference.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The issue in that whole proposition lies within this one single sentence

Business software is written for windows

Nowadays, practically all companies are moving towards either SaaS, or in house web services. The pandemic has killed native enterprise apps, for better or for worse.

Windows only has decent presence because it's reasonably easy to integrated Windows machines into corporate structures. The moment Apple taps into that market, it's all over. We've seen that with Google basically ruining the school market for Microsoft by doing that, and it will happen again.

[–] cybersandwich 13 points 1 month ago

Counter point: I just got a new MacBook at work. It's an all windows enterprise. There are like 10 of us that got macs. The setup for them is kludgy because all of the tooling is for windows.

That said, Microsoft office and one drive is so much better to use because the "integration" isn't there...and it works like I want it to work.

It's hilarious to me that they've made their offering worse with all of their efforts to integrate 365 and onedrive into everything.

I think if apple just did a little towards the enterprise they'd take chunks of market share. Like having a macpro with a pic/cac card reader would be a good start.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)


Add to this lack of CUDA support, which is what pretty much all CAD runs on. Apple's Metal may be interesting, but that doesn't matter if the apps don't port to it.

It'll be especially interesting to see how AI plays out. If NVIDIA ends up winning (they're currently way ahead), it'll be the same issue as with engineering, but in more disciplines.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Oh, yea!

The other area I meant to mention related to engineering is external device control.

Things like specialized controllers for things like CNC, many of which won't even run on NT-based systems, and still have to run Windows 9x to have the DOS-level hardware control.

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[–] oakey66 40 points 1 month ago (1 children)

A good portion of windows users are corporate/business users. They're not going anywhere.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (4 children)
[–] ANNOFlo 32 points 1 month ago (2 children)

As someone in German Government who has written a thesis on OSS in government:

Happens regularly, on a small scale, but almost always eventually leads to a rollback to Windows. People are discontent with the solutions on Linux since they have to get used to something else, and the aging governmental workers and exactly very keen on things changing.

The City of Munich had a similar program of switching to Linux before, only took Microsoft to open an office in the city to revert on those plans.

The federal government recently finished rolling out a centralised, unified client around all of their ministries and other institutions. Which OS? Guessed it, Windows 10.

Dont get me wrong, having something like the French Police would be amazing, but the highly federal nature and old workforce of government make it super unlikely for Linux to have a proper chance. Taking into consideration the lack of suitable employees to drive forward such a change, the lack of money at local government levels and the fact that most of the specific software required doesn't have a version for Linux doesn't fill me with hope.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago

Office suites are a tricky one. The shitstorm when MS changed it to the ribbon UI was insane. Business users really do not like change. That and the minor incompatibilities in document loading to LibreOffice. I mean, it's like 99.9% of the way there, but that 0.1% is guaranteed to be in the middle of one of those massive spreadsheets that absolutely fucking everything hinges on.

Still, Office has been going in-browser for a while now. They might at least get off Windows, even if they're stuck with Office.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Let’s hope it gains traction and you can write another paper on the success of oss in government.

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[–] someguy3 18 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Hmm interesting thought. But how many people are going to actually buy new computers when they don't get updates? And of course how many will keep trucking with out of date windows? So for the one that buy a new computers, how many will just buy windows again? How many will have a tech savvy relative that can install Linux for them (because they can't afford a new computer)? How many will go to Chromebook because it's cheaper? Personally I never understood luxury brands, which I consider Apple to be.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 month ago (19 children)

Chromebooks aren’t really a threat. People who can use chromebooks as a daily driver probably already are. Also, most of the hardware is absolute garbage.

Apple isn’t all luxury. The Mac mini as fast af and starts at $599.

Apple just doesn’t have a “shit” category, like many other manufacturers.

Sure, a lot of people will choose Linux, but that won’t be a majority.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 month ago (10 children)

As much as I don't want to give LTT credit, I think Linus has a point with Chromebooks. Google is playing the long game with them. Students almost exclusively use them these days, and anecdotally, most of them are getting chromebooks and the like for college now that they're getting to that age. That's at least been the case for almost every family member I've had that's started college in the last 5 years.

It's only going to continue as the average Chromebook legitimately is becoming more powerful, and Steam compatibility is improving. You're going to see a whole lot of people who see no need for a PC/mac.

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[–] Urist 15 points 1 month ago (2 children)

My neighbour randomly asked me a few months ago if I was familiar with Linux and if I could could get him some boot USB or something. I got him one with several options. He didn't have any Linux experience before, and isn't exactly a nerd.

It's much easier nowadays for someone to get familiar and use Linux than it was before, and it's much cheaper than reworking your whole tech ecosystem to accomodate Apple's monopoly.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

My elderly neighbor needed a computer to do accounting, I set her up with Mint on a T430 w/ LibreOffice and told her I'd giver her free support till the laptop died.

5 years on and the only time I've had to fulfill my side of the bargain was when her printer was out of paper and she couldn't find her eye glasses to read the error message.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

her printer was out of paper and she couldn't find her eye glasses to read the error message.

Hahahah, omg that's awesome.

To me this user exemplifies where Linux shines: in limited-use-case scenarios (not to say it's inflexible, just that support increases quickly with increased use-case complexity).

The more general-use needed, the more technical skill is required.

This user has a small set of specific requirements, so it's pretty trivial to get them running on a Linux distro, and it's a great application of what Linux brings to the table. System management will be minimal.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

In addition to the other great points in this thread, Apple has a cost barrier that other operating systems don't.

In an economic climate where everything is getting more expensive, a consumer isn't going to fork out $800+ on a MacBook or an iPhone without first actively wanting to be part of the ecosystem, especially if the hardware they have gets the job done.

The reason Apple isn't growing as fast as it's competitors right now is exactly that. Apple is expensive to get into. No amount of enshitification on other OS's is going to change that.

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[–] disguy_ovahea 38 points 1 month ago (4 children)

The “walled garden” is both what the average Apple customer wants, and what technophiles despise. Most iPhone users want the full assurance that they can download any app without performing research, knowing it won’t crash their indispensable device or track their every move. Say what you want about the limits of customization, it’s probably true, but Apple’s tight leash on software is precisely why iPhone is so reliable and private.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago (18 children)

private, bro? are u kidding me?

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[–] kinsnik 12 points 1 month ago (4 children)

It’s interesting, because for my iPhone that is true. I was a bit concerned with the walled garden, but made the switch from Android because of privacy (not that Apple is perfect, just much better than Google). I can’t recall a single time when i wanted or needed more than what the iPhone offered.

But with my iPad there are multiple times when i wished i could run a local web dev environment, or run MacOS apps (it is using the save M1 as my computer after all)

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[–] someguy3 30 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Apple's history of being walled garden is interesting.

So in the 80s and 90s, Apple tried the wall garden approach. And it absolutely failed. The IBM clones won out, with software and all that that worked across vendors and platforms. The hardware and software could be separated, so Apple's approach of both and closed didn't work.

Then Apple languished for decades.

Then with smartphones you had this product where the hardware and software needed to be tightly integrated. And tight integration was necessary to give a high functioning, small, compact device, where you needed the software to be highly optimized for the specific hardware.

I find it fascinating that Apple has stuck with the same formula for decades of wall garden and control of both hardware and software. That business model failed spectacularly, then treaded water, and then succeeded spectacularly. I think none of which was from an insightful or brilliant business analysis, it was just how the stubbornness played out.

So as for where it will go from here, I think who knows. Phone hardware is now powerful enough that you don't need the same hardware and software vendor where it needs to be so tightly controlled. But Apple has built itself a nice market which is kind of self sustaining. Will people care about prices again?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

So in the 80s and 90s, Apple tried the wall garden approach.

Wat. In the 90s Apple literally had officially sanctioned "clones".

[–] someguy3 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

From 1995-1998, Apple authorized other

So after they lost and were scrambling. I expect at steep control, licensing fees, and hardship coming from Apple. A measly 3 years, I can't see how they committed to the concept - I expect most people made the same judgment call (and were right). (Different read was Jobs was fired from Apple from 1985-1997, so maybe he killed it after returning). I also never heard of it (not that I'm an expert) so I expect it was a very big 'too little, too late' situation.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago (6 children)

Or everyone is starting to figure out that the garden looks just as good outside the fence as it does inside the fence. Technology has been converging for many years now to the point where most devices especially smart phones have reached a bottleneck and no one can make things go any faster and there is really no big need for even more massive storage space for the average person. So phones have hit a ceiling and the place that Apple once had where they were one of the few manufacturers that made good phones is now overshadowed by lots of other companies that are comparable or near comparable. Does the average person really care if they have a high definition 20MP camera or a 22 MP camera. All they care about is being able to scroll through Tik Tok, FB or Instagram and no one really seems to care what device they use to do that any more.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Apple still has a pretty solid ecosystem that makes it hard to break out of. For example:

  • airdrop and sharing in general - experience sucks pretty much anywhere else
  • watch, phone, and laptop all working together - iMessage, notifications, etc
  • iCloud - the experience is essentially seamless if you use all Apple products

I don't think people will be leaving Apple anytime soon, and those who don't use it probably don't know what they're missing.

I'm personally on Linux and it works well for me, but I recognize that people tend to stay where they're at, and I think Apple is probably more attractive to people who decide to leave Windows than Linux is (unless they need games, and Linux still seems to have better compatibility).

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

From a technical point of view I agree .. I have a few friends who work in music and visual arts and they swear by Apple products and software

But to average users and people who just want to go online with social media, snap a picture, share it, forget it and do it over and over and over again ... they really don't care if it's an apple product or not. The family and friends I know that are not technically minded only understand one key technological specification when it comes to devices ..... PRICE and COST.

If they can't afford a $1,000 apple phone .... they'll buy a $500 android phone ... or just stick to their five year apple phone and won't upgrade until they can buy a used $500 apple phone.

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[–] yamanii 9 points 1 month ago

I'm glad we are finally treating phones like the mini computers they are, they should be free as in freedom just like'em.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago

Does it matter even if they do? The company has lost consumer trust and respect going into the future.

[–] unreasonabro 8 points 1 month ago

it's still a fetish for a lot of you alarming maniacs.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:

So it’s been doing the logical thing for years, which is finding other ways to make money, and it’s been largely successful, particularly as it added the App Store and services like Apple Music.

And smaller developers struggled to find a business model that worked between Apple’s commission fees and strict guidelines over how and when it could charge customers for their product.

Microsoft recognized that Java could make porting software from Windows to other systems easier, so it sabotaged Sun’s efforts and instructed its allies not to aid the company.

Apple responded to the pressure by promising to support RCS on the iPhone — a standard that updates the relatively ancient SMS/MMS protocol and includes more iMessage-like features.

The other shoe fell last month when the US Department of Justice filed an antitrust lawsuit against Apple for operating an illegal monopoly in the smartphone market.

But that’s unlikely to be the end of it — app developers aren’t happy with the company’s “malicious compliance” to new rules under the DMA, and European regulators are investigating Apple’s response.

The original article contains 2,020 words, the summary contains 178 words. Saved 91%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] nomadjoanne 5 points 1 month ago

Honestly I'd be truly thrilled if they were merely forced to open up iMessage. I'd be a huge quality of life improvent for people who don't want to daily drive an iPhone but have to keep in contact with Americans.

And for those living in the US with Androids.

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