this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2023
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I was recently talking to some friends about Lemmy and the whole Fediverse idea, as it seemed like a really cool part of the Internet. As I was talking about it, though, I realized how unusually friendly this whole place is, and I joked that I "surprisingly haven't found any bigotry."

I'm wondering if anyone has come across that, by any chance. If it's rare, my guess is that even though it's decentralized, each instance has a set of rules and values that are shared throughout the Fediverse, and I'm guessing it's easy to defederate with any seedy communities haha.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I'm an admin for a relatively busy instance, so I see all of the bigotry, and there is more of it than I'm comfortable with :\

There's a lot of bigots out there that have moved over from reddit.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I suspect that your instance attracts those sort of person, just trying to rattle someone :(

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

A little, but most of it isn't even targeted at our users. Lots of the stuff I see is just stuff reported by our users, in communities that have nothing to do with us specifically.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Otherwise ... and I'm essentially quizzing you here, so feel free to ignore me

Do you think lemmy/kbin's relatively poor and insufficient moderation tooling is partly to blame for what you're seeing?

Do you think that the communities based structure make this sort of thing more likely to be bad or problematic?

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Do you think lemmy/kbin’s relatively poor and insufficient moderation tooling is partly to blame for what you’re seeing?

Not as such. The moderation tools lead to redundant handling, and make it easy to miss reports you shouldn't miss, and force you to leave reports open so that others don't miss them, but the actual number of reports is more of a cultural thing than anything else.

Do you think that the communities based structure make this sort of thing more likely to be bad or problematic?

So, the microblogging fediverse (which I'll call microfedi) existed for years before twitter crapped the bed. It housed queer folk who had left main stream social media, and those queer folk set the culture and ran the instances. So when twitter happened, even though the culture changed, there was a sufficient mass of existing instances to ensure that bigots remained unwelcome in the mainstream fediverse.

However, when reddit crapped the bed, by comparison, the threadiverse basically didn't have an established culture. There was a handful of lemmy instances (we were one of them), but the only one of notable size was lemmy.ml. kbin didn't even exist in any meaningful way until a couple of months before reddit died.

So, when reddit died, there was no established culture. Instead, people brought reddit culture with them, and reddit culture, because of lax admins, was much more tolerant of hate speech than microfedi. And so, people who are "reddit people" more than "fediverse people" set up lemmy and kbin instances, and brought those reddit norms with them.

So then, you get instances like blahaj and beehaw that are threadiverse instances, but have the "old school" microfedi approach to bigotry. We smash it down hard at the first hint of seeing it, but most of the instances we federate with don't attack it so aggressively.

And thus, on microfedi, much of the work is done by remote admins before I ever see it, but on the threadiverse, it's often just not done by remote admins (unless it's aggressively hateful), and that means I end up seeing a lot of shit, and blocking a lot of users that wouldn't have had a chance to get established in the microfedi universe

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Thanks!! And, that all makes a lot of sense.

I’m curious, if you’re willing to answer.

As lemmy.ml and beehaw are older and have closed/application based sign ups … can you tell that there’s less bigotry coming from them?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Interesting feedback

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've personally been wondering this and wanted to ask you precisely this but didn't because I figured it'd be rude. I hope it's going ok!?

But yea, it unfortunately makes sense that the reddit migration would have brought over more "mainstream" rubbish.

This, plus what's happening over on Threads and the arguments here about the fedipact etc, for me, have seriously raised the prospect that as much of a critique can be leveled at the culture often (and pejoratively) dubbed "HOA" etc, actually being protective of a culture to the point of coming off as "gate keeping" etc has real world value.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I mean, that's the selling point of this instance. We are aggressively protective of the queer community. I explicitly aim to cut the toxicity off at the source rather than forcing each of our users to react to it after they see it. The wall is there to ensure we can exist without having to be on guard all of the time, and the HOA stuff is often driven by people who don't care if we're on guard, or actively want us to feel unsafe

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

the HOA stuff is often driven by people who don’t care if we’re on guard, or actively want us to feel unsafe

... sighs ... yea

I think @zens / @bri_seven puts it quite well whenever someone tries to describe aspects of the fediverse as inevitable ... they repeatedly say something to the effect that the real danger is the one that tries to convince the victim that the abuser/monster is simply a force of nature that must be accepted.

Just my ranting there ... hope your instances go well and the moderation work isn't too much for you!! And thanks for the response!

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

The more people, the more bigots in between.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

A comment on my other account got brigaded by tankies a while ago. Was told to "fuck off, liberal"

But then that guy got banned from the instance, and everything was good.

[–] JoeClu 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Hi, I'm not in in the know. What's a tankie? Pardon my ignorance.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Short version? Mix and match the following:

  • Pro Xi Jinping
  • Pro Joseph Stalin
  • Pro Mao
  • Pro use of tanks against civilians as in Tiananmen Square in 1989 or Hungary in 1956.
  • Pro Vladimir Putin

Basically a tankie is any apologist for government violence against civilians -- whose apologetics usually go something like, "those weren't real civilians. That was a color revolution. The government of [authoritarian regime] responded with no more than the necessary amount of force. Western propaganda is making it look more violent than it was in reality."

From Wikipedia

The term "tankie" was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to crush the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring uprising, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.

[–] JoeClu 2 points 1 year ago

Thanks. Did not know that. So tankie is short for military tank. I get it.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah theres a few too many genocide apologists hanging around, but (just to spite them) i dont want them to be banned. Its better they stay here and see the light

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah if they're banned then they'll go back to their bubble saying they're being silenced, but how can you silence someone who's not contributing to the conversation?... I'm fine with different opinions, but I don't understand people who think the way to convince someone of your viewpoint is hostility. Telling someone to "fuck off" with no reason is just toxic. Once might be a bad mood/state of mind (happens to the best of us), but repeat offenders shouldn't be allowed to keep harassing others.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Perspective. That comment says more about a person who cant concieve of a logical rebuttal than it says about me. I dont want to live on sesame street. That said, those comments get old reeeeal fast

[–] Today 19 points 1 year ago

I think everyone I've encountered has been very polite. Well, except the one person who said my crochet project looked like Chewbacca shit. Jokes on them - i didn't buy the wookie yarn; i bought the Groot yarn and they just can't tell the difference.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, I discussed with an andrew tate fan that asked "why do people get angry when I don't respect pronouns of trans people" or something to that effect, a real shit stain but I think he got banned after a few hours

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[–] Antimutt 14 points 1 year ago

Deleting the thread out from under you is usually bad behaviour, but in the one instance it happened to me the chap was entirely right to do so - he'd left his exif location data in the image. Still, the hedgehog pic was good enough to be posted again, which I did.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Political stuff is as enflamed as ever. I'll take the beans over that any day.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I've seen a few people, here and there, trying to test the limits and finding very quickly that they're not going to get very far.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There's this one commie user who I always end up getting into an argument with. I don't mind though because they actually seem to be intelligent and I like to hear what they have to say.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Please tell me it’s me

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[–] Candelestine 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ooooohh we've got plenty. lol

One thing about the Fediverse is its a little less "singular" so to speak. People spread out a little more, and you get fewer bigger places where a whole lot of people mingle.

The fascist kids and the tankie kids both have Instances of their own, fairly heavily defederated with a lot of the rest. They're about as pleasant as you'd expect.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I posted a dumb meme about my power going out and my neighbors using the car for AC, and I had some guy screaming at me that I was lying about my power going out because they couldn't find it on the internet, then when I posted a screenshot of my app that shows my power outages, they started screaming that I was a toxic person for not inviting them in my house. When I pointed out the irony of them being toxic, they essentially said it's different when they do it because it's online, but I'm toxic in person, which somehow makes me worse.

Even though it was just a fucking meme in the first place. The power did go out, but no one was dying in the streets or anything.

Oh, and then someone posted a picture in a comment of someone taking a shit on someone else.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you don’t hate Twitter, Reddit, Threads you must love them and are the enemy.

Lots of us vs them hate on this platform like many others. You arnt allowed to have a nuanced opinion or conversation about some things.

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[–] trouser_mouse 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

There is plenty of rudeness, hostility, and general toxicity and bigotry to go around. But there is also a lot of kindness, thoughtful consideration, and people who want to do the best for the platform and communities forming here.

I feel like the amount of more challenging or unwanted behaviour has gone up just in the time I've been here (hopefully not because of me!). From hardly seeing much of that in the first week or so, to then gradually seeing more and more as presumably more people move over from Reddit.

There are also a number of people who are moderating a large number of unrelated communities, and there are potentially issues with that and their behaviour and motives. There has been at least one support thread about it.

Be interesting to see how instances and communities respond, and if a more firm line will be drawn around these things.

[–] dystop 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I feel like the amount of more challenging or unwanted behaviour has gone up just in the time I’ve been here

I see that too, but I attribute that to the growing number of users here. It's an unavoidable part of growth, sadly.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So far so good, I see less toxicity than on big social media. I guess there are not enough people yet, I see mostly enthusiasts who are excited that they're building something new. Perhaps because of that the probability of seeing or getting some unpleasant comments is lower. But I'm also quite picky in what posts I read, something related to Elon Musk or Threads doesn't interest me.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You will find this type of people everywhere on social media.

I use Tildes and is this kind of place people circle jerk how smart and insightful they are using comments. One user had this long threaded comments and I just disagree at the end, he was so pissed. Second time it was with a Redditor coming with the same toxic echo chamber bs bringing to Tildes, my conclusion many redditors are toxic users that will spoil anywhere.

Don't get me started with Hacker News.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I got into an exchange the other day where a dozen users made a point of telling me why they support using misogynistic slurs, or how the slur isn't any worse than other impolite words, or how it isn't really misogynistic, or how it's okay when used against evil people.

It was real disappointing, and I'm strongly considering unsubbing the community where the thread took place.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I stay away from the politics related communities. A bunch of people from r/Politics migrated to Lemmy and I’ve received death threats for having the wrong political opinions.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

2 idiots got into a "u.no u" fight on one of my threads that escalated into them brigading each other. Even the block feature didn't work for a while.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

There are toxic instances and users, but the communities have done a good job of staying focused on staying on topic. So not really any people going off on some personal unrelated tangent screaming on their soap box.

Like the game based communities have focused on talking about games. I've usually avoided and filtered communities that tend to get rather argumentative like politics, and I don't expect it to be any different in that department here from reddit.

My reddit experience was nice too because I stuck to my subscribed feeds and filtered lot of stuff out. Argumentative communities will always be that way regardless of where it exists and there is nothing wrong with that because it is on topic for why it exists . It's an easy unsub and block if I want to avoid it.

I just hope some keyword filtering gets built in soon so browsing /c/all is easier to discover new communities I'm interested in without being cluttered by the ones I'm not interested in. Back on reddit my filtering list was useful, since it led to making /r/all a pleasant one where it was mostly filled with dnd or anime or star wars stuff as opposed to the default politics, Twitter/tiktok/Facebook reposts, and fight and gore clips that dominate it by default.

[–] riyria 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It’s not really surprising people are having problems with people on lemmy. For the first time in at least a decade we are in the Wild Wild West of a part of the internet. Things haven’t normalized themselves yet so shit is weird and sometimes unpleasant.

[–] user1919 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

i have seen few, but none had interaction with me.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

So far, I haven’t encountered anything super negative. Everyone on the instance I picked as my “home” has been extremely friendly. Because of that, I usually just check local activity.

I do, occasionally, check all instances. Even what I see is mostly friendly.

I’ve been lucky, I guess.

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