this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2024
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[–] inb4_FoundTheVegan 122 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Tesla fans have taken issue with the word “recall” in the past when the company has proven adept at fixing its problems through over-the-air software updates. But they likely will have to admit that, in this case, the terminology applies.

Even if Tesla sucks super hard, I agree with these complaints. I immediately checked to see if this was a "real" recall or a software one. Since they all need some physical work on them it definitely applies, but I really wish they used a different term for software update "recalls". It's confusing word choice.

[–] deranger 184 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (9 children)

Software updates should absolutely be recalls. Ship a complete vehicle or don’t. I absolutely do not want cars to turn in what games are today. I do not want hotfixes on my car because they didn’t test. Fuck an OTA update too, I don’t want that either, if they need an update it’s a recall and the cars have to go back to the shop. I want it to hurt and appropriately damage the company’s reputation.

[–] [email protected] 100 points 2 months ago (3 children)

In my opinion it points to a more dangerous thing, “continuous delivery” software mindset seeping into safety critical systems.

It’s fine, good even, that web developers can push updates to “prod” in minutes. But imagine if some dork could push largely untested control system updates to your car’s ECU… it’s one thing for a website site to get a couple errors, but it’s a very bad thing if it makes your steering wheel stop working.

Unfinished products make more money, and it’s high time a consumer protection law clamped down on this.

[–] joekar1990 20 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I agree I mean how many times in the past couple of years have large sites or services gone down because an update was pushed through. Most recently I can think of teams going down earlier this year.

Should be protocols put into place for cars that need to be followed for a software update.

[–] abhibeckert 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Should be protocols put into place for cars that need to be followed for a software update.

Protocols are in place. We can argue over wether or not those are good enough, but the car industry is incredibly heavily regulated.

Those protocols include certain systems being designated as "critical" and significantly more testing is required to change them. Some changes can only be made after an entire year of testing by a third party auditor including crash tests, emissions tests, etc.

Updating the map to inform the driver that a police officer is standing around the next corner with a radar gun? That can be done OTA with zero testing (and yes, my car does that). That's not a critical system, it's an important safety feature. If the car ahead of me is going to slam on the brakes the moment they see the officer... I want to know it's likely to happen ahead of time - might even slow down myself. ;-)

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[–] inb4_FoundTheVegan 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I dont disagree with anything you said, I just think there should be a different, but equally severe term for clarity. It's not hurting Tesla so much as devaluing the word "recall". Make it hurt, Tesla is reckless with the way they ship unfinished products, but as I said before, I wasn't even sure what "recall" meant in this sense.

[–] deranger 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (17 children)

I’m saying upgrade what it’s considered to recall. No OTA hot fix, car goes back to the shop. A proper recall just like any other recall. A software issue is just as dangerous as a hardware issue for something like an accelerator pedal. To be clear, this isn’t Tesla hate, this is modern “sell unfinished products” hate. I’d say the same thing for any other manufacturer.

If the blinker pattern needs to be updated, that’s fine for OTA in my opinion, and shouldn’t be a recall. Problems with the accelerator, brakes, steering, anything safety critical - nah. Recall for that, proper recall.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Put your hate for Tesla aside for a moment. If a car company can fix an issue with a simple OTA software update, it’s way more convenient for both the customer and the manufacturer. Quality control of an update is a separate issue but I don’t imagine there’s a difference whether your car updates itself or gets taken in for the update- the same patch gets applied in either case.

[–] deranger 44 points 2 months ago (12 children)

It’s not Tesla that I hate. It’s shipping products too quickly.

The inconvenience is the point. I want people to be inconvenienced, myself included. That means people complain to one another. I’ll know which models suck simply by talking to people around me. I do not want quiet stealthy patches for things like an accelerator pedal. Either do it right or pay the price. We used to make cars without hot fixes, we don’t need to start. It will allow auto manufacturers to further cut corners and push for faster releases with less testing, and we pay the price with our lives.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago

I can't wait to live in a world where my own damn car wont start because someone forgot to renew a cert.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Put your hate for Tesla aside for a moment

I don't want ANY manufacturer to be able to silently fix huge problems. This is not a Tesla issue. But they're the ones currently doing it. Now to bring it back to Tesla... Do you want Elon to be able to cover his ass after a dozen people die to some manufacturing defect... Just for Tesla to silently fix some software thing and never get found out/thrown in jail for negligence?

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[–] jkjustjoshing 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

As someone who might be plowed into by one of these things, I care about the difference. Is it something where 80% of them will be automatically fixed within 72 hours by an auto-update, or is it something I’ll need to worry about for weeks/months. There’s no way to know which recalls have been fixed when encountering a vehicle in the wild, so if it’s a software-only recall fix that applies automatically, I feel less concerned about it once the fix is available.

None of this should be taken as support of recklessly shipping unfinished software into a car.

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[–] abhibeckert 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Fuck an OTA update too, I don’t want that either

Yeah no - you're dead wrong about that. My oldish car has an annoying glitch where it occasionally goes into limp home mode. The workaround makes it pretty clear this could be fixed with a software change (or even just a non-vague error code would be nice...) - but my car can't do OTA updates and also it's old enough it doesn't really have software so a recall would be hideously expensive.

It's not a safety problem, so wouldn't rigger a recall. When it's under warranty, they fix it... but sometimes it takes several attempts with multiple thousand dollar parts replaced on suspicion before finally finding the one that caused it, when it fails out of warranty... either live with the issue or sell the car for spare parts.

if an OTA update was possible they would absolutely do that. The ones that fail under warranty must be costing them a fortune.

But the real issue is recalls are expensive, and ultimately the car buyer pays for them. Car manufacturers are not charities, they will either raise prices to cover the cost of a recall or they will go bankrupt to avoid doing a recall. There is no other option on the table.

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[–] IphtashuFitz 56 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (17 children)

What's confusing about it? A recall in the automotive world has a very specific definition, and it covers not only software related issues but hardware related ones as well.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is a part of the US Department of Transportation, and they publish a 20 page pamphlet that describes what a recall is. Here are the relevant parts from that brochure:

The United States Code for Motor Vehicle Safety (Title 49, Chapter 301) defines motor vehicle safety as “the performance of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment in a way that protects the public against unreasonable risk of accidents occurring because of the design, construction, or performance of a motor vehicle, and against unreasonable risk of death or injury in an accident, and includes nonoperational safety of a motor vehicle.” A defect includes “any defect in performance, construction, a component, or material of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment.” Generally, a safety defect is defined as a problem that exists in a motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment that:

  • poses a risk to motor vehicle safety, and

  • may exist in a group of vehicles of the same design or manufacture, or items of equipment of the same type and manufacture.

Furthermore:

The National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act gives NHTSA the authority to issue vehicle safety standards and to require manufacturers to recall vehicles that have safety-related defects or do not meet Federal safety standards.

In other words, federal law gives NHTSA the authority to issue recalls for any defect that is considered a safety defect. There is no qualifier for it having to be mechanical in nature.

I've had software-related recalls issued for both a Toyota and a Honda that I used to own. The Toyota one resulted in them sending me a USB stick in the mail and telling me how to install it in the car (basically plug it into the entertainment system and wait). The Honda one required a trip to a dealer to update the software in the ECU to prevent the cars battery from dying due to the alternator being disabled improperly. Just because these were software related in no way means they weren't recalls. They were both mandated by NHSTA, both resulted in official recall notices, etc.

Edit: Just for fun you might want to go to https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls and do a search there. If you enter "Tesla" in the field for "VIN or Year Make Model" you can browse all their recalls. The very first one on this page is titled "Incorrect Font Size on Warning Lights". That's most definitely a software recall. It's assigned NHSTA recall #24V051000, and they list the affected components as "ELECTRICAL SYSTEM". If you read further it also shows the remedy was an over-the-air software update.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago

I love seeing comments like this on Lemmy. Reminds me of early reddit. Super informative.

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[–] yesman 20 points 2 months ago (6 children)

This is a bad take. Software updates that fix life threatening defects are as serious as any recall.

It's motivated reasoning. Either the people making this argument are Tesla owners, simps, or shareholders and are trying to protect the phantasmagorical value of the company.

Saying "my car's drive-by-wire software gets more firmware updates than my printer" is not a flex.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yeah, it’s an extremely popular sentiment on the internet to scoff at software update related recalls as if they “don’t count.” 9 times out of 10 the person making the claim is a Muskrat, because this is a very common thing with Teslas and daddy Elon must be defended at all costs but every now and then they’re just a run of the mill moron unwittingly parroting Muskrat talking points.

A recall is a recall whether the issue can be patched OTA or whether you have to drive to a dealership so they can spend 30mins swapping a random seemingly inconsequential part. The specific mechanics of the solution do not change the fact that a problem required a recall to be issued to consumers. Perpetuating the notion that these recalls should be considered “less important than a real recall” is dangerous to the point of stupidity.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

This is a bad take. Software updates that fix life threatening defects are as serious as any recall.

Rereading the original comment, I didn’t get the implication they were trying to say a software update “recall” is less serious. The word “recall” literally means “to bring back.” So fundamentally, calling a software update a “recall” doesn’t make sense because you aren’t bringing your car anywhere.

As a car owner, now when you hear your car has a recall you have to find out if you need to take it into a service center or just update it at home. It would be better if these software recalls went by some different, new name that immediately conveyed what you need to do.

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[–] UltraMagnus0001 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

Just had to do a Chrysler recalls that is a software update and it is a safety issue. The Traction, ABS and stability control would disable itself randomly on the Pacifica. Another one from Chrysler is the defog would not work on the Grand cherokee Hybrids. All of those are software, but also safety issues. Tesla had one where the self driving would kill people.

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[–] filister 81 points 2 months ago (1 children)

3878 Cybertrucks were produced from November to April, that doesn't bode well for Tesla. Are there any recent numbers of the reservation holders for this abomination? I am curious to know how many have canceled their reservations.

[–] danc4498 29 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I know nothing about the auto industry, but that doesn’t sound like a bad number for a brand new class of vehicles that costs close to $100k.

Legit, I can’t imagine anybody wanting to buy this thing for half that price.

[–] DanglingFury 10 points 2 months ago

Grand Wagoneer wishing they had numbers like that

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's really is not bad, considering it's a completely new design and manufacturing process that is using all new custom tooling and assembly lines. No other manufacturer in the world is building cars like the Cybertruck is being built.

Doesn't make the quality any better or even excusable though....

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So glad no one else is making a vehicle like that. Oh, you mean different techniques, not ugly as fuck and designed by a preteen who loves minecraft?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I was viewing it from a manufacturing perspective, since that is my job and training- it is legitimately pretty interesting how theyve manufactured it. Its still a shit looking truck and I wouldn't ever buy a Tesla out of principle anyway. I think people completely misread my original comment as being a musk fan boy.

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[–] [email protected] 44 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The fact that anyone who thought buying one of these was a good idea has enough money to do so is proof that we don't live in a meritocracy

[–] hperrin 24 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Elon’s reality distortion field is almost as strong as Jobs’ was. The difference is that Jobs knew how to make a good product.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Jobs didn't know shit. He made a bunch of predictions, some of them right, some of them not at all right. He just took credit for other peoples' work, mostly Wozniak's. The man was every bit the piece of shit Elon is.

Worth listening to the 3-part series on Jobs from Behind the Bastards: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-the-terrible-secret-of-156343561/

[–] hperrin 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I’m not saying he wasn’t a piece of shit, I’m just saying he would never sell a product with such piss poor quality as the Cybertruck like Elon does.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Yeah OK that's fair.

[–] EdibleFriend 33 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] dual_sport_dork 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)
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[–] Ultragigagigantic 8 points 2 months ago

Fuck I thought I alt tabbed back to dwarf fortress for a second

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago

You love to see it

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Maybe that drink-o-drive billionaire didn't whiskey throttle into that pond after all?

EDIT: It was a Model X SUV, nevermind

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

This is Elon Musk

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Sooo... All of them who aren't totaled yet?

[–] AdamEatsAss 6 points 2 months ago

Good thing the glass is indestructible.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

TIL: They actually built the Cybertruck for real!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

ironically, it's not the steering!

Yet, at least.

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