No Stupid Questions

I'm actually shocked to find how many people agree with the OPs sentiment, but maybe there's something about the demographics of who's using a FOSS Reddit alternative or something. I'm not saying everyone is wrong or has something wrong with them or whatever, but I entirely agree with people finding this valuable, so maybe I can answer the OPs question here.

I've been working remotely long since before the pandemic. I've worked remotely for multiple companies and in different environments. I am extremely introverted and arguably anti social. I tend to want to hang out with many of my friends online over in person. But that doesn't mean I think there's no advantage at all. To be honest, when I first started remote work, I thought the in person thing was total bullshit. After a few meetings my opinions drastically changed.

I've pushed (with other employees, of course) to get remote employees flown in at least a few times a year at multiple companies. There are vastly different social dynamics in person than over video. Honestly, I don't understand how people feel otherwise, especially if they've experienced it. I've worked with many remote employees over the years and asked about this, and most people have agreed with me. Many of these people are also introverted.

I think one of the big things here is people harping on the "face" thing. Humans communicate in large part through body language - it's not just faces. There's also a lot of communication in microexpressions that aren't always captured by compressed, badly lit video. So much of communication just isn't captured in video.

Secondly, in my experience, online meetings are extremely transactional. You meet at the scheduled time, you talk about the thing, then you close the meeting and move on. In person, people slowly mosy over to meetings. And after the meeting ends, they tend to hang around a bit and chat. When you're working in an office, you tend to grab lunch with people. Or bump into them by the kitchen. There's a TON more socializing happening in person where you actually bump into other people and talk them as people and not just cogs in the machine to get your work done.

I find in person interactions drastically change my relationships with people. Some people come off entirely different online and it's not until meeting them in person that I really feel like I know them. And then I understand their issues and blockers or miscommunications better and feel more understanding of their experiences.

Maybe things are different if you work jobs with less interdepencies or are more solo. I've always worked jobs that take a lot of cooperation between multiple different people in different roles. And those relationships are just way more functional with people I've met and have a real relationship with. And that comes from things that just don't happen online.

Im honestly really curious how anyone could feel differently. The other comments just seem mad at being required to and stating the same stuff happens online, but it just doesn't. I do wonder if maybe it has to do with being younger and entering the workplace more online or something. But I've worked with hundreds of remote employees and never heard a single one say the in person stuff to be useless. And I've heard many say exactly the opposite.

The extraverts had the tables turned on them in 2020 and have been itchy for a captive audience ever since. It's a drug fix for these people, nothing more. I've skipped every cross country in-person team building gibberish since 2020 and will continue to do so.

Because generally social interaction is easier and better face to face. You can read people's facial cues better, have true eye contact, better hear the subtitles of voice and mood. People feel more connected with someone if they have met them face to face.

Alternatively, communication via email and video call can be hard and easily misread. People can misread emails as aggressive or be aggressive and not realise the impact. Communication on a video call, especially in big groups, can be difficult and impersonal.

Meeting up occasionally is probably seen as good a way to keep your team coherent and friendly. You're more likely to be aware of the other person's feelings if it's someone you've socialised and spent time with. It's easier to be empathetic and kind if you know that person in the flesh rather than just a name on an email or a random face on a video call. You're more likely to make allowances for other people if you know about them and their circumstances.

When working remotely how many times do you have social calls and chats with your colleagues? It's an important element of being in a long term team.

I work in a hospital in a busy face to face job but some colleagues I barely see as we have different weekly rosters. So I only interact with them via email or video call; despite being in the same building a lot of the time. We make the time once a month to have a team meeting and social catch up as it's good for everyone and the team. It's similar to what you're doing once a year across a country.

You may not see the value in it but it may be worth noting other people may see the value in getting to know you and understand you. For example if that socialisation isn't something that comes natural to you, your team members seeing you and getting to know you will also help them adjust to work better with you. It is very much a 2 way thing.

I have a slightly different perspective that hasn't particularly been mentioned yet.

I think you agree that communication with your spouse and friends is better in person than online. Otherwise, why do you live together with your spouse? That's the argument of the meet-in-office folks.

However, the difference is that you don't care about or hate your job and/or coworkers. Other people, who push for these meetings, do not feel like this. Hence they enjoy the higher quality of relationship offered by occasional in-person time, but you don't.

Some people really like in-person socialization. There's something lost in the webcam only meeting. I'm glad you adapted well to the circumstances of the pandemic, but not everyone faired so well. I can tell ya I went a lil bonkers not being able to see people in person.

Some people need to be around others, some people hate it, some people are indifferent. Everyone is different.

I find social interactions very draining. While others find being isolated draining.

I think we are likely in the minority but that doesn't make us weird. No one is normal.

I think everyone just pretends to be honest. They're a few fucking weirdos who enjoy waiting 5 extra hours for their delayed flight and having to rent a car to drive to some conference that could have been conducted virtually and all that other bullshit, but I'm fairly confident that most people would prefer NOT to do that and to simply wfh. Webcams are fine with me. I have friends. I have a wife. I have a family. I don't need to see work people in real life. It literally adds zero benefit to my life. Also a lot of people suffer from chronic pain like back problems. Commutting and flying and sitting 8 hours a day in some piece of shit ergo chair from 1988 is literally torture for them. Work culture has no sympathy for disabled people. They can go get fucked. Work from home for life all you motherfuckers.

Because I can’t seem to act the same remotely as I do in person. I have trouble reading the room and responding as expected.

I'm in the same boat as you. It's a waste of time for me, but others seem to need it.

It's worth noting I have autism though. So social interactions don't do much for me.

If I only ever have to see my team once a year, I take it as a win, fake it til I make it, pretend it's amazing for flatter my boss and team.

Everyone would think I'm an asshole if I wasn't positive and polite about the one whole day we are forced to eat fucking bagels together.

Airports? Days? I live 30 mins walking distance from my office and I'm still not bothered to go there.

I find it difficult to put my penis in people of I don't see them in person and I want to put my penis in people.

I share the same opinion as you. My job is mostly remote, but I am required to come to the office (2 hour drive away) once every month or two (which has mostly come down to company meetings once every 2 months).

On the bright side, they book me a hotel room and compensate me for gas and wear-and-tear on my car, but pretty much when I get there, it's a normal day with a scrum meeting almost first thing, which we do virtually almost always anyways, and then the same work I'd be doing at home, just at a cubicle. We sometimes go out for a group lunch, but most of the time we're on our own (I don't really eat lunch so I just grab a coffee), and then we have the company meeting which could 100% just be done virtually. My only real interaction with anyone in the office is greetings when people walk in and that's pretty much it.

I'm with you, I really don't see the benefit, and I know I can't complain much because it's not very frequent, but it's still 4 hours of driving (which btw, I think I'm expected to not count as "work time") and it doesn't benefit me or anyone else I see anyways.

look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while?

Not the same as interpersonal interaction, misses much of the communication we evolved to express and understand.

OTOH, I've had a few Zoom-only relationships where we're pretty tight, but that's rare.

LOL, one of those is my Zoom rep. We email occasionally, trade pics and jokes. Every few months we Zoom and shoot the bullshit about our lives. She gets me the skinny on upcoming stuff, where my account's at, what I might need or not need. Because we're tight like that, she jumps when I need a thing, and in turn, I read all her correspondence carefully.

Another is a coworker, nearly my best friend at the company. When we finally met in person at a team meeting, we were tight. Boss was like, "Had you guys met before today?!"

Again, pretty rare relationships. Know who I'm really close to? The guy who lives here who I used to work in the office with. Man came to my wedding. None of those remote people did. When he needs my help, I jump.

And if anyone wants to poo-poo interpersonal work relationships, I will ask that person what they think of long-distance relationships. The conventional wisdom is that they don't work out. (Yes, I know those are different. But how different and why? Think on that.)

Great post and question! Much food for thought as we navigate this new world.

Anyway, I had some thoughts earlier tonight, both pro and con.

https://old.lemmy.world/comment/8056815

It's hard to trust someone I've never met. I don't want to travel either but I want to understand the people I work with in a way that's only possible when we share space.

It's work. It's not always fun but that's too be expected.

You're not being weird. Some people like face to face, some don't. Not everybody's the same and to claim that would be naive. Unfortunately, there are more people who enjoy face to face than not, and most of them work in management: management is interacting with people --> you have to like interacting with people to be at least a passable manager --> the chances are much higher you enjoy doing that face to face --> management makes decisions --> face to face is valued.

Same goes for salary: management is there to delegate work --> they are disconnected with the day to day of workers because they don't do their work --> management sees workers as less qualified than themselves --> logically never would pay those "less qualified" same or more than themselves. Management makes decisions so guess who gets paid more...

It's just how things shake out. If workers become management, they too forget how things are and slip into the same pattern observed above. It's just unfortunate how the human brain works.

I've worked 2 jobs for 22 years, my side-gig being the 22-year one while my day-job moves about.

Working remotely has allowed me to change addresses, cities, regions, coasts, countries, and time zones many times in those 22 years. Had there been enough work in the side gig, I would have been happy to make it my primary job; but I say that as I know the day job has taught me techniques and tools I would maybe never have been able to bring to the side gig without that incentive.

Seeing people in the flesh is neat and keen and fetch, or whatever. But I'll reserve that for my friends.

When it comes down to it, I have the power to require that a job pay me for every moment I do things on their behalf; and that includes commuting. I don't want to do it, and they don't want to pay me to do it, so I don't.

ive worked on remote and office teams and i think that the asynchronous remote workflow can be more efficient and more easily measured. there's a paper trail for every conversation that happens. but you also enable dickheads who don't like to work when you pair them with managers who have no idea what's going on. ive worked on teams like that too.

::: spoiler You sound like a Solarian

In The Naked Sun Isaac Asimov portrays a world focused on avoiding physical contact with other people. The Solarians interact with each other largely through technology. They live far from each other, spread out across a sparsely populated planet. People are taught from birth to avoid physical contact, and live on huge estates, either alone or with their spouse only. Face-to-face interaction (referred to in the book as "seeing") is seen as a repugnant chore. Communication takes place through technology unknown of off their world: holography, 3-D television. Communicating with each other in this fashion is referred to as "viewing", in contrast to "seeing", which is face-to-face. Communication is frequent, but it is "viewing" of a transmitted image. 1

Not to say that being in an office is better for everyone, and I think people should be able to freely choose a working style that fits them best. There are a few benefits of in person meetings and gathering, here are some I thought of.

A: To make sure You didn't outsource work assigned to you to someone in a foreign country for a fraction of your salary.

B: To bring up the whole team in one place to look at something, and/or socialize in a way you just can't over a virtual call.

C: To cross-communicate between departments more, and proactively avoid silos of information on multidisciplinary projects.

D: Meetings and calls can feel more transactional when done virtually than in person, there's less ability to talk about other stuff besides a brief bit of small talk at the beginning or end.

E: Extroverted people feel lonely with prolonged work from home just as much as introverted people get tired out from being around others for long.

F: A manager needs to get more than just a verbal answer on something. Someone can easily just say "yeah yeah everything's fine", but there's stuff with unspoken body language that can be gauged much better in an in-person conversation.