this post was submitted on 22 Feb 2024
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[–] deweydecibel 199 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (23 children)

There's a clip from The Batman ( the animated show) I can't find at the moment, but it basically involves Batman clearing a room of thugs by offering them jobs. They all walk out, without a punch thrown.

In the real world, no one that has Bruce Wayne's degree of wealth is a truly positive influence on the world on the whole. There are no ethical billionaires. But within the context of the DC Universe, Bruce has been routinely demonstrated as using his wealth in the most socially conscious, progressive, and generous ways. He is always shown in stark contrast with the likes of Lex Luthor.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 58 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Bruce has been routinely demonstrated as using his wealth in the most socially conscious, progressive, and generous ways. He is always shown in stark contrast with the likes of Lex Luthor.

Depends heavily on the author.

In "Kingdom Come", for instance, Wayne and Luthor are partners and Wayne's main contribution to Gotham is a fully automated dragnet of police-robots across a city he effectively owns lock-stock-and-barrel.

In "Batman 2099", he's a recluse whose personal tragedies have rendered him incapable of engaging in more than self-pity, while his board of directors does all sorts of evil shit completely off the leash.

In Joaquin Phoenix's "Joker", his family is just another one of the members of the criminal cartel that has corrupted the city, with Bruce's doctor-father spending more time hob-nobbing with the elite socialites than attending to the city collapsing under his feet.

There are definitely more utopian takes on Bruce and his family. But Gotham is inherently dystopian, and you can't escape how the city's wealthiest family is - at least somewhat - responsible.

[–] OscarRobin 19 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I think it's awesome that different Batman stories can examine different versions of Bruce and his position as a billionaire - it allows different aspects of the world to be interrogated: criminals sometimes doing crime because they know of no other way to survive in a capitalist hellscape, the apathies of billionaires to the evils of their financiers, Batman's obsession with order leasing him to militarise the streets of the city he loves, etc.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (31 children)

Of course he does.

The point is that Batman is the archetype of a right-wing superhero. Batman is how rightwingers understand social justice: accumulate as much wealth as you can, use crushing physical violence to punish bad guys, act charitably at an individual level but do not ever work to solve social issues at a systemic level.
Even in-universe he's nowhere near as much of a positive force as he could be if he used his money to force political and social change instead of as an outlet for his mental issues.

He's not actively villainous because right-wingers don't see themselves as such. But when that fantasy meets reality, you get Elon Musk.

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[–] jaybone 19 points 8 months ago

Stark contrast… you could have done something with that.

[–] Son_of_dad 18 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

Still goes around beating people without trial. Reminds me of the comic run where all these low level criminals who Batman has crippled and left for dead for small offences, come after him for revenge since he fucked them up for life, while letting the Joker escape or go to Arkham yet again

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil 111 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Over 60 years of "crime-fighting" but no noticeable decrease in Gotham's crime rate.

Curious.

[–] dejected_warp_core 37 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If anything, Batman single-handledly escalated the matter.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 20 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Bringing Shark Repellent to a Gun Fight.

[–] dejected_warp_core 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Joker: I've tried everything! Mobs of gun-toting clowns. Mind altering gas. Inciting riots. Political engineering. An elaborate plan to make everyone look like me. Sharks.

Bane: Sharks?

Joker: Yes, sharks. Did I stutter? Honey, do I have something distracting stuck in my teeth?

Harley: No, sweetie. Just that winning smile of yours. ::mwah:: ^_^

Bane: (That's it. I'm just gonna level the whole city and be done with this place)

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[–] Stern 29 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Considering there's, variously,

  1. the Lazarus pit leeching into the groundwater,
  2. The ~~Illuminati~~ Court of Owls enabling more crime alongside the general pervasive corruption by the ruling class,
  3. The buried evil bat god Barbatos who was summoned and remains under the city
  4. The corruption of insane wizard Dr. Gotham who has also been buried under the city for over 40,000 years (Who gave him a doctorate 40,000 years ago is what I want to know.),
  5. Amadeus Arkham (and seemingly every warden of Arkham since) grossly mistreating the patients there.
  6. The city being surrounded by swampland lending it to be perpetually gloomy.

One can see why the city might not have the best base to positively grow from.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago

Depending on the timeline, that's not true, but that's the problem with resetting a timeline a dozen or whatever times. We see an endless amount of him fighting the crime and never the results.

[–] afraid_of_zombies 15 points 8 months ago (1 children)

They didn't explore it as much as I thought they should. Batman created Bane, indirectly, and in some ways attracted Bane to Gotham which set off the events that lead to all of Arkham criminals being released. Which in turn led Arzial to Gotham. Which brought about the events of Contagion and Cataclysm which lead to No Man's Land.

So in a way the entire city of Gotham was brought down by him being there.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 11 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Sure. But you can take a step back from there and assert the crime cartels of the earlier era - the Falconnes and Mannheims and Marchettis - and their corrupt police confederates created Batman (since they're indirectly the cause of his parents' death and the main antagonists that head up the crime wave that young Bruce pits himself against).

And since there's a (even in-universe) hard association between organized crime and the various state and federal intelligence agencies, I guess you could put the entire Batman Villain universe at the feet of Harry Truman, J. Edgar Hoover, and Allen Dulles.

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[–] [email protected] 107 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

The line is quippy, but it's silly when you look at the batman stories. Anything can be funny if you get reductionist with it

When the writers have her saving plants, they do it in a way that you root for her. Same with Mr. Freeze, those episodes and the movie is really touching, solely because of his motivation.

You don't root for batman to beat them up or flex his wealth on them, you want Batman to help them. You want them both to get happy endings.

The stories usually end with batman stopping the carnage, while also arresting whatever CEO was cutting down trees or doing experiments on Nora. In other stories, he funds social programs and advocates for reforms as Bruce Wayne.

Maybe there are other stories where he acts like a frat boy. I skip content that has shitty writing

[–] deweydecibel 36 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah people that make this joke don't pay attention the actual content. Bruce is routinely demonstrated to be a positive force with his wealth. He's socially conscious, generous, invests in progressive causes, runs numerous charities, restricts his company from participating in unethical practices, creates jobs for convicts, and treats his employees very well.

Now, I'm not suggesting this is realistic. No one of Bruce's wealth, in the real world, would be anywhere near as good as Wayne is depicted.

But within the context we of this world, the actual text of the stories tells us quite plainly he is a positive, progressive influence.

[–] MotoAsh 11 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (9 children)

... and yet, he'd STILL be infinitely more effective if he either properly funded Gotham, or started actually killing evil people. Instead, he does neither... Batman still sucks balls even in the good interpretations. . ... mind, I still enjoy most of his comics and stories, but dude is just as healthy of a role model as The Punisher: Not at all. For the opposite reasons, ironically.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Simply handing drug dealers and corrupt politicians a boatload of money isn't likely to do much of anything - he'd be bankrupt in a year and the city worse off than when he started. That's why the Harvey Dent arc was so crucial: Batman can only do so much in the shadows, but what the city really NEEDED was a hero who could operate in the light of day (though he still needed support from the shadows).

Ofc the real answer is that the premise of the franchise is based on Batman punching people, as in physically, so his goal isn't even saving the city so much as making satisfying wham bam pow sounds.

More "political" franchises are fewer and further between, which is why Star Wars and to a lesser degree Trek (in this regard) were so popular. Both involved a radical, violent and bloody overthrow of the corrupt forces (Trek having been in the past but in Wars it happening "live" and being the central feature).

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago (4 children)

I mean, somebody must have agreed, because they made a whole movie about it.

This tweet is the entire premise of The Batman.

It does end kinda going back to justifying why he's more useful in the suit instead, but at least they spend a bunch of time talking about it, I suppose.

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[–] [email protected] 79 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (6 children)

Time to take a meme on the internet too seriously! :D

There are two things that bug me about the weirdly frequent discourse on Batman.

Firstly, there's no one version of Batman. You can find bastard fascist Batman, and you can find actual justice Batman. Hell, you can find both by Frank Miller, depending on the point in his career. My favorite version is from The Animated Series, and you'll find tons of examples of Batman using kindness and compassion to affect meaningful change, instead of reveling in violence as though it solves anything. Heck, he's nicer to working-class folks, even sympathetic criminals, than to his fellow rich people.

Secondly, I think it's a talking point with bad optics. Batman rules. Why let the fascists have him? If there are loads of ways to look at and interpret the character, I'd rather focus on the one that makes him the good kind of class traitor, anti-fascist, anti-cop, and fighting for economic and social justice.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)

I like TAS Batman A LOT especailly since he gave his villains every shot at redemeption, many of them were simply too damaged to live a normal life.... Heck, for Harley Quinn all it took for her to start being evil again was a single PTSD attack, and it was induced by a mall cop, implying her trauma was started by police brutality

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah, that's one of the episodes that immediately came to mind.

Harley: There's one thing I've gotta know: why'd you stay with me all day, risking your butt for someone who's never given you anything but trouble?

Batman: I know what it's like to try and rebuild a life. I had a bad day, too, once.

It was absolutely a rehabilitative vision of justice. The same thing happens with The Ventriloquist, where Batman is extremely supportive, and goes to great lengths to talk him down after he was manipulated into returning to crime. Heck, there's even a villain, Lock-Up, who personifies a cruel, punitive form of justice. He even reveals the guard's abuse, through a clever ploy, as Bruce Wayne, in a hearing about Arkham.

[–] VindictiveJudge 11 points 8 months ago

And Harley did eventually get better in TAS's continuity. In Batman Beyond, she has a brief cameo where she's upset with her grandkids for getting involved with the Jokerz gang.

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[–] BaldManGoomba 17 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Couldn't he use his batman persona to intimidate the rich to affect social change? Like Bruce Wayne can do so much if he had a dude in the night breaking into other billionaires houses in Gotham and telling them to raise wages or stop influencing politicians to not raise taxes and let healthcare for all go through

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You're pretty much describing a scene from Batman: Year One. He crashes a party full of rich people to intimidate them. It's actually the good Frank Miller comic I was talking about.

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[–] afraid_of_zombies 13 points 8 months ago

In a bunch of the comics he raises hell with the corrupt leaders of the Gotham.

[–] VindictiveJudge 17 points 8 months ago

Several versions also have him channeling huge amounts of money to charities as Bruce. Also trying to influence local politics with his company or hiring petty criminals he runs into as Batman to work at Wayne Enterprises so they have legitimate income. Batman is working on things that are happening right this second, but Bruce is trying to fix systemic issues so that Batman eventually won't be needed.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago

Yeah, one of my favorite depictions of him are the Year One movies/comics, where Batman is fighting corrupt cops just as much as he's fighting the mafia and other villains of the week.

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[–] UnspecificGravity 55 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

That's always the issue with super heroes. All these people with these crazy abilities and powers and the only thing we can think to do with them is beating up petty criminals.

Like that's really what the world needs: tougher cops with no oversight.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Except that actual super villains exist in their universes.

[–] ChexMax 15 points 8 months ago (3 children)

What's the difference between the super villains in their universe and the ones in ours? Mass shooters, serial killers, billionaires who own sweat shops, leaders of drug cartels, Jeffery Epstein, corrupt cops, corrupt judges, Putin, all the soldiers commiting war crimes and those who lead them who are either ok with it, or instructing then to do so.. we've got super villains

[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago

OP said all they do is beating up petty criminals, which is simply not true.

I don't know why you question me about the difference between their universes supervillains, and what you define as supervillains in our world.

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[–] Stern 50 points 8 months ago (2 children)

She's trying to regrow the forests like the Orphan Crushing Machine is solving child hunger.

[–] Duamerthrax 21 points 8 months ago (1 children)

She's also an environment strawman. Think of how often mainstream media portrays environments as radicals vs how often they're portrayed as reasonable heroes. Thanos? Kingman's villain? Think that's by accident? Well, maybe some of it is. Being able to find success within a power structure means you may find it reasonable and fair, so you end up writing stories that reinforce that power structure.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

I love to hate this movie, but I think Freeze's costume, made by an actual armor fabricator is just sick as hell, nipples be damned.

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[–] slazer2au 27 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Also he is trying to find a cure to his wifes disease.

[–] deweydecibel 23 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Which Bruce helps him with in the end. He could of sent Nora to a hospital, Freeze to jail, and washed his hands of it. Instead he makes an effort to transfer her to Arkham so Freeze can continue his work.

He does something similar in virtually every single iteration. Of his principle Rogues Gallery, Freeze is nearly always the villain Bruce makes the most effort to assist.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I get the overall vibes but

  1. Poison ivy literally kills little children for littering
  2. Bruce does spend a fuckton of his money on Gotham. It has like 0.01% of the effect it would have in the real world because a warlock is interred on Gotham's soil.

The basic premise of the Gotham universe is that everything is fucked. It's grimdark, it's DC's 40K. Actually it would make near perfect sense if those two were one universe.

OTOH the Harley Quinn series (the one with Harlivy) does take jabs at Bruce's sheltered status, "People pay rent?". Lots of stuff going on in that series that don't fit standard canon, though, the series is as much a contemporary commentary on the universe as it's an in-universe show. Do watch that series btw even if you're not into comics, or the universe, or whatever, it's hilarious.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago

Pedantic literal interpretations of what amounts to a 90 minute burlesque show are my fav!

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago

Just say you don't understand batman comics.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago

Anyone who has ever seen Harley Quinn has definitely rooted for Poison Ivy.

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