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I am so fucking sick of these bigots pretending the science of "biological sex" is on their side.
In recent years, multiple studies of the brains of trans people have revealed areas of differentiation from those of cisgender people. And unless these bigots are prepared to argue that brains are not part of biology, they only have two choices: Deny the science somehow or accept that they're just bigots who want to hate, regardless of the science.
And because unlike bigots, I like to back my shit up:
On top of that, there's some indications of oligogenic causes resulting in various allele differences that wouldn't necessarily show up on a brain scan.
In conclusion: Fuck bigots and their attempts to co-opt science in order to support their bigotry.
I'm glad you're backing it up, but honestly, the answer to this whole "biological science" bullshit is simper- it's none of their fucking business how someone else identifies. I don't care what "science" says is a man or a woman. If someone says they're a woman, it's not my fucking business to tell them they aren't.
Absolutely agreed. I only bring it up because the bigots like to claim science is on their side (while usually rejecting science to back up some kind of religious nonsense). So it's nice to be able to throw actual science in their faces.
I'm glad to now have it for myself, so thank you for that, but I don't know that showing them real science will work because they are not coming at this from a rational position. All they see is "man = penis, woman = vagina" and no amount of science will change their mind. Even bringing up basic things like people born with both sets of genitalia doesn't phase them. "Well that's just the exception to the rule," as if that's a thing in science. So when they say that they have science on their side, what they mean is that they've found some scientific studies that agreed with their preconceived, unscientific notions.
As they say- you shouldn't play chess with pigeons.
What I've heard a lot of people do is not make a whole show to convince the other person but to convince people who may be on the fence or uneducated on the subject. Any third party observer who might just be learning about stuff.
Would you rather trust a random screeching about people birth genitals or someone who is posting scientific evidence to back up their claim and being calm and knowledgeable about the subject.
I get it though, fuck em.
The issue at stake is people's own fragile identities
Let me clarify: JK Rowling's childhood learning of "boys have penises and girls have vaginas" runs so deep into her understanding of how she understands being a human that giving it up is scary and threatening.
Everything new to a conservative is scary and threatening.
Tbh I think her hate comes down to two things: she was raped by a man and is paranoid because she never dealt with that trauma in a healthy way and she recognized the right wing as a crop to be harvested. She's an ideological predator.
Sad that she was raped but immediately declaring all trans people rapists just makes her an asshole. It’s a shame that people actually listen to her crap too.
Thanks foh dah tip
Exactly, none of this has any bearing on their lives and odds are enormously in favor of the likelihood that these people will never even meet a trans person—and if they did it would make zero difference to them—so the real solution is to let it the fuck go.
All this talk about living rent-free in people’s minds and all that, yet here we are, you know?
They may very well have met multiple trans people and never even known it. Their hatred for trans people is really just for the ones who can't "pass." They don't think about the others. They think of "a man in a dress." If you showed them a picture of Valentina Sampaio without saying who she was, they'd say she was a woman. And it would be fun to see their reaction when you told them she was trans because at least some of them would see her and be aroused.
Yes, and that’s where the “it would make zero difference” part comes in. Leaving people well enough alone is so easy, it’s crazy how socially inept these ghouls can be.
Except it is important in competition where lines must be drawn if we are to enact protected classes. If we don't need to then that is a different discussion, but for now there are many segregated competitions of all types that exist, which means you're wrong.
By "competition," do you mean sports? A form of entertainment?
Why should I even care? Sports are not important to the way the world functions.
Sure thing Bob, let me just stack that in-between "Evolution" and "climate change" on my shelf of "Things that don't fit my bigoted, hateful, and selfish worldview, so I just conveniently ignore them."
They will always find a fallacy to argue you that they are right. It's a belief. You need to bring them to realize they are wrong.
Hard fact, evidence based fact isn't the bast practice to change these beliefs.
Biological sex exists, it's just not binary, and the mental part of this has a massive psycho-social component to it that few take into consideration. Brain research on this is still in the chicken vs egg stage it seems based on those papers.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why would you link to an article that mentions "biological sex" in the first sentence when trying to prove that there is no such thing as "biological sex"? I'm almost certainly missing something, so please excuse my ignorance.
You are misunderstanding. They are saying that biological sex is not the same as gender and it's clear that a trans woman's brain is much closer to their identified gender than the one assigned to them at birth.
So biological sex is real then? I keep being told that I fell for a lie that there is a such thing as "biological sex" and that there is no such thing as male and female humans. Is this not the case? Is "biological sex" a real thing?
It isn't binary or nearly as easily defined as transphobes claim; there's more to it than just chromosomes and genitalia.
I'm not sure how you think reproduction works...
I've always been under the impression that there are males and females. I know that sometimes they feel like they are in the wrong body, but I thought they were still males and females. I am repeatedly told by people in the trans community that this is a lie and that sex is not male and female and that this idea is part of their systemic oppression. I'm just trying to get a solid picture of what is going on exactly.
sex != gender
Biological sex determines the bits you have in your pants - gender on the other hand is the social construct we humans have created, on top of that, to assign social roles and expectations to individuals.
The main issue TERFS (or FARTS) have, is that they argue the only thing that matters is what bits you have in your trousers. Which completely ignores the reality of people everywhere that are societally expected to behave in certain ways because it aligns with what society has deemed "manly" or "girly". They argue that by wanting rights for trans people, that means, we, as a society, end up entrenching the gender norms feminists have fought so hard to dismantle.
However, that fully relies on the idea that gender has already been abolished and everyone presenting the way they truly feel is just "men" co-opting the feminist movement for their own "deviant" benefit.
Which
A. Completely misses the point about equality and solidarity (why does it matter if AMABs present as women if we all have equal rights?)
B. Disregards the reality of transmasc, transfemmes, enby and anyone else that just wants to live life in a form they feel comfortable with (feminine women and masculine men are just as valid as the opposite)
C. Absolutely dismisses the experience of transmasc individuals as "confused girls" - which is not only bigoted but extremely sexist, it implies that AFABs have no agency and are fully controlled by society - "you see they're not smart enough to understand social constructs and how their lives fit into them - no! they're just trying to pass as male so they get the patriarchal benefits the current system provides!" - again completely missing the point of equality.
You may think these are strawmen but if you're familiar with JKs rethoric you'll see these are genuine beliefs she holds.
This way, the "Trans Movement" (ie. people presenting and behaving in ways not directly assigned to their birth sex) becomes a hill to die on.
Not because of the purported "safety of girls" in bathrooms, sports and prisons (which JK will gladly demonize in her own fictional worlds of trans criminals and rapists (spoilers - people of any sex or gender expression can be awful human beings - saying they're the reason sex crimes occur just dismisses the reality of abuse perpetuated by hurtful people))
But because it's an ideology of absolute societal constructs (how can a man pretend to be a woman if the only thing that makes a woman is her genitalia?)
And look, I too am a gender abolitionist - if we lived in a genderless society that didn't have gender reveal parties or gendered shoes or clothes or interests or literally anything that divides people into binary groups - I'd be on that shit - but that's not what folk like JK are fighting for.
They see sex as this immutable quality that not only determines your reproductive organs - but how society should perceive you. You have a penis - you are a man. Oh, you don't like being perceived as a man and you feel you relate to women in a way that other men don't? Well, too fucking bad, in the man-bin you go. Rooster between your legs says you're not allowed to sit in a female-only cubicle - get the fuck out.
That's why this type of thinking is harmful, the goal isn't to see who gets the "most rights", the goal is for everyone to get the same amount of rights, always - so it doesn't matter if you call yourself a man, a woman or any other label you may choose - what matters is that if you give out love and respect you should receive the same in return.
Edit: Sorry for the massive essay, but assumed you might be interested in the context around sex and gender
Thank-you so much for writing this. I really, really appreciate the time you took to lay this out for me. It is amazing how hard it is to get clear answers on this topic. It seems like it is just constant insults and name-calling for anyone who wants to try to understand. You're so wonderful for putting so much effort into explaining this. I can't thank you enough.
Are there any books or recommended reading that you would suggest to go any deeper?
Thanks again!
Glad to help!
The main book on gender I've seen recommended is Suzanne J. Kessler and Wendy McKenna's - "Gender: An Ethnomethodological Approach"
Oh my, what a word that is! Thanks so much, hopefully there is an audiobook version.
No, they're telling you that gender is not sex.
Of course biological sex is real. It's just a lot more complicated than 'male' and 'female' because biology is not that simple. So yes, there are XY and XX humans and they can generally, but not universally, reproduce with each other. But that's not all there is. For instance XXY and XYY are both possible, although often come with a host of other genetic problems (but not always). There are also people born with both types of genitalia, sometimes functional and sometimes not. On top of that, there are conditions like Swyer Syndrome, where someone with XY chromosomes has female genitalia and maybe even a functional female reproductive system.
If trans people are telling you that biological sex is not male and female, that is what they mean.
I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this. It is refreshing to get answers when I ask about this stuff instead of just slurs and attacks.
Is it definitionally correct to say that male and female are two of the biological sexes, but there are more? Or is it not even the case that male and female are biological sexes at all? If not, then what is the proper term for xx and xy people?
Do you know what the reason is for the down votes I am getting for the question i asked you? Obviously I don't care about the score or whatever, I just want to know what it is about my question that is offensive.
You are getting downvotes because Tucker Carlson has weaponized the "I'm just asking questions" excuse to justify terrible takes on established science. People are finding you guilty by association. It is very hard to distinguish between actual curiosity and trolling, especially when bigots are constantly honing their messaging to appeal to wider audiences. Some people will get caught in the crossfire of our culture wars.
Well, I suppose if stopping the spread of awareness was his goal, then he has done a hell of a good job. It is crazy how many people instantly turn to hate and name calling as soon as they discover you are not already on the exact same page as them. Thanks for sharing this.
"Male" and "female" were terms we came up with long before we understood things like genetics. They come fourteenth century and they have been with us ever since. Maybe we shouldn't use those terms anymore, but it's not something that's easy to change.
Wow! I had no idea that the terms male/female were not around until the 14th century. That's fascinating! Thanks so much!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system
This is a good article to read.
Awesome, thanks so much!
If someone's body has the typical properties for males or females, it's generally considered as such. If someone was born with properties of both, they maybe considered intersex. Trans people often don't fit very well into this system. A trans woman for example may have XY genes (a typically male trait) but estrogen and a vagina (typically female traits).
Male and female work well for most people, but there are some people whose bodies aren't strictly male or female. For those people, medicine generally has to individually consider the relevant traits.
It's really fascinating stuff, and way more complex than they teach us in school. Hopefully, this is changing though. With how important survival is to evolution and how prevalent this stuff seems to be, I can't imagine that there isn't some reason that a species would have so many variations. I wonder how common it is for other species to have variations that aren't simply the xx and xy equivalent in nature. I wonder if it is possible for there to be a 3rd chromosome type in any other species. It's so cool that this is all something that is getting more and more awareness.
That is insanely amazing!
TERF
You know what's hilarious, i didn't know about this word or this group of people until you started chanting their name like a home-and-garden sales rep on cocaine. You are doing more to increase their popularity than they are! Your mama would be so proud of you.
Terf!!
Trans people aside, there are people who are purely biologically not XY-male or XX-female. You can have X, Y, YY, XYY, XXY, and XXYY. And more, but the further you get from a pair, the lower the viability. Not to mention things like hormone insensitivity, where you may not develop primary or secondary sexual characteristics, or having sensitivity and developing too much in a certain way.
It's all very complicated, and honestly when it doesn't affect me I don't worry about it. Let people live their lives the way they want in peace and everyone will be much happier.
Thanks, I appreciate the information.
Something I've learned that complicates it further is that a single person doesn't always have consistent chromosomes throughout their entire body. It is entirely possible to have an XX liver or brain or any other organ while the rest of you is XY. It is called microchimerism, it can happen when some stem cells from a baby get into the mother and start to develop as one of her organs. It can also go the other direction, so anyone who formed in a womb can have it. Generally, people have no reason to be tested for this, so most people have no idea if they have organs like this or not.
Quick correction, you cannot have just Y or YY. The only full monosomy you can have and survive is Turner syndrome (just one X). Not having any X chromosome is 100% fatal, the X chromosome is necessary for development regardless of sex. Additionally, while you can have XYY (Jacobs syndrome), you cannot have YY for the same reason you can't have monosomy Y.
"It's basic biology" mfers when they see advanced biology 😣