this post was submitted on 06 Mar 2024
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The Uncommitted Movement's goal to get high uncommitted voter turnout in the primary so that Joe Biden changes his outdated views on Palestine and Israel is great.
However if people vote uncommitted in the primaries because they are convinced Biden is Genocide Joe then they aren't going to want to vote for Biden in the general election.
Anyone who thinks someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary but not realize that the fascist republican party is significantly worse than Biden for the general election is arguing in bad faith.
Telling people Biden is Genocide Joe isn't a nuanced position. People who think Joe Biden equals genocide aren't voting for him now and aren't voting for him later. An argument that ignores the inherent cognitive dissidence it would take for someone, who believes Joe Biden is directly the cause of Israel's genocide of Palestinians, to vote for Joe Biden is disingenuous.
Truth is, I'm likely going to end up voting for Biden in the fall, because for all his faults, he is infinitely better than Trump. But I want him to fucking sweat in the meantime. Because if he sweats, if he realizes he can't simply take the votes from the left for granted even as he gives nothing to us, maybe he'll fucking start giving something to us.
I have no illusions that he'll do the right thing out of the goodness of his heart, but perhaps he'll do the right thing out of fear of losing.
It's just a shame we can't make him sweat without making the millions who'll be totally fucked if he loses sweat too.
God I wish there was room for an actual threat from the left instead of "well I guess we'll make everyone who isn't wearing a maga hat worry about whether they'll be up against a wall by 2028"
I wish the party would quit taking advantage of the looming threat of fascism in order to be unresponsive to the concerns of its base.
It’s not a nuanced position, there is genocide of the Palestinian people occurring in Gaza literally right now. They’re actually dying and the US props up the country doing it, it’s clear Biden could and can do much more to stop the genocide. So some people call him “Genocide Joe”, people are being murdered, I assume they think something so striking is fitting. Whole families have been wiped off the face of the earth, some people get radicalized by that I am sure.
Now people who do think he is “Genocide Joe” will not vote for the other guy https://web.archive.org/web/20240306112504/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905 . Argument is bunk, hell the fascist guy said he’d support completing the genocide completely while Biden holds a line of “secretly I want it to stop” which is “vaguely” better. And if they don’t vote for either because of support for the genocide on both sides, they are not people who care about the country and definitely don’t have well constructed opinions on anything else. (e.g., couldn’t rely on them for a Dem vote if no genocide occurring)
So this argument is just wrong. The crap some Dems wish for, that people shouldn’t protest Biden’s policies at all or else all will fall is inherently flawed - the US democracy is built on free speech and advocating for change. And when a people are being genocided by a US proxy, many think it is worth it to rock the boat in a safe way.
I fundamentally agree that we should rock the boat and get Biden to change his policies. What I don't agree with is calling Biden, Genocide Joe.
I also fundamentally agree with this. This is the nuance. Biden has the ability to stop this conflict right now. So we need to pressure him to make that happen. As soon as possible, I should add. I have no doubt Israel's current fascist government will make good on it's threats to attack Rafah at the start of Ramadan. That's the 11th of this month, next Monday afternoon. This is all completely lost with the Genocide Joe nickname.
They might reasonably think they shouldn't vote for either candidate, even when they need to be voting for the lesser evil. It's considerably harder to make that distinction when one candidate is Donald Trump and the other is Genocide Joe. We should be making the distinction between the candidates as clear as possible. The last thing I want to here on and after election day this November is that people couldn't tell the difference between Gush and Bore.
I’m not out to plaster Biden as “Genocide Joe” personally. But I would like him to use his influence to at least genuinely try to end the genocide so no one wants to call him that. At least Trump just said he would “finish the problem”, makes it clear he won’t be better for whoever is single-issue on the Palestinian genocide
We do need unity, I will scream for eternity if Biden loses. I want the genocide stopped so that we can concentrate on preventing the fall of the US. People are dying in droves and it needs to stop, so protest. But again, I will implode if Biden loses. So I do understand why so many people are against the protest because it breaks unity, and I understand why people are so worried. We in the US are facing the end with a single election, it’s grim
In my experience most of the people calling him genocide Joe can't vote in US elections.
But yes, their goal is to get Trump elected.
I think the people in this thread aren't Russian bots. That's why I think it's worth arguing with them. If we want Biden to win in November, then calling him Genocide Joe isn't helping.
I don't think Lemmy has the cultural cachet to warrant actual Russian Trolls, we get the propaganda second hand from useful idiots.
While I think a lot of this is Russia, I think Qatar is ultimately the main offendor here.
Next time you see a post on here linked to al Jazeera reporting in Palestine, just point out that all jazeerah is technically a wing of the same political apparatus that Hamas is. If you were to do this, you might notice that within 24 hours, downvoting of your comment might equal more than 50℅ of all activity in that thread, almost as if people were coming to that post solely to downvote.
You might also notice that for the people who do respond to you, they will almost never address anything you actually say, but appear to have prompts based off what specific keywords you hit. Or you might notice a flurry of accounts all responding as if they are the person already engaged in conversation with you, but they all have different screen names. Almost as if they are writing their replies directly from your posting history rather than their own account in boxes.
The propaganda machine is here, and I suspect the P2P nature of our system is going to make this platform the least able to moderate it out once we reach a critical mass of people.
Now, thankfully there is only 35,000 of us here, so we are such a low priority that there aren't too many bad actors here yet.
what does this mean?
If I write you a message, you get an icon in your private message inbox allowing you to know I responded.
However, if you are signed into a sock account, or even multiple accounts, you might forget which account you are currently signed into, and instead of waiting to be notified (because Lemmy has a bit of a lag), you instead are refreshing my profile, you might just respond directly to me from there, even if you aren't in the right account.
Actual damaging propaganda will occur on the mainstream sites, especially Twitter, via the RUSKIES to drive support from Biden in the general. We must all do our part to prevent votes for fascists (Trump, any republican at all at this point)
This is me-me is just commentary on a safe protest vote with a vilifying tagline to garner attention. But the protest vote is to end the US-funded genocide of the Palestinian people by the country of Israel, which is a very worthy goal.
do you have proof of any of this?
Proof that the majority of accounts using Palestinians to sow division among democrats in an election year can't vote in US elections?
The only way I could possibly prove that to you is if I only communicated with people after photographing their ID and then sending all of that to you.
so you're making it up
You can also keep watch on the accounts who post and comment on al Jazeerah links.
I would say that any time a "leftist" posts an English language edition of a right-authoritarian state media in a positive fashion, chances are good that account should be saved and watched from time to time.
this is more conspiracy theories.
Al Jazeera being the state media of Qatar is a conspiracy? Has Al Jazeerah been told this?
accusing people who post accurate information to Lemmy of being state actors is, yes, a conspiracy theory
If a leftist believes that a far right regime is the only place to get accurate information that can't be found elsewhere, and then promotes that far right regime's media, that person is not a leftist.
What are they? I don't know. But when we have a small amount of accounts of people who are not who they claim to be, and they all are spending hours per day promoting the exact same message, and occasionally responding to the wrong messages, coordination of some kind is happening.
These accounts who push borderline pro-hamas sentiments while using Qatari media to do so may not be state sponsored. It could just be some lone nutcase who just really agrees with Qatar's geopolitical goals.
sure. could also be a leftist.
Maybe. If so, they'd be a lousy one.
you said yourself you can't prove this. it's a conspiracy theory.
I don't need to prove that people who are funneling ad revenue to far right authoritarian regimes who fund religious terrorism aren't leftists.
Their actions did that before I entered the equation.
that's conjecture, not proof
What in that statement is conjecture?
Everybody who clicks on a link to that website without an ad blocker just gave ad revenue to an explicitly anti-semitic government. Going without a VPN, and that government now has a really simple way of unmasking the identities of who visited, directly from Lemmy.
As leftists, we have to be pro Palestine while being anti Qatar and anti Hamas. Trusting what they tell us isn't leftist, nor intelligent and I think if you are being honest with yourself, you already know that.
leftists link corporate media of all kind. it doesn't impugn their politics.
Most corporate media aren't the sister organizations of Hamas.
You know that.
but they take money from people just as shitty, like bayer and lockheed and the pentagon. there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
What specific US based leftist media are you accusing of taking money from weapons manufacturing?
I have been specific in my accusations against a media company, it is only right that you should as well.
none, but there is plenty of us corporate and state sponsored propaganda posted in these communities and i don't see accusations of shilling for the pentagon and cia being thrown around like the accusations of shilling for putin/trump
If you can name a single account of a supposed leftist who is filling their day by posting state propaganda or pro-weapons manufacturing sources to leftist communities, than I will happily consider this to have merit.
From my perspective it seems like you are excusing authoritarian behavior under the guise that leftists do it for others and thus are obligated to do so for Hamas.
I think until you name and shame we can probably dismiss this specific point.
how hard is this?
new york times
washington post
given how ubiquitos links to these war-hawking publications are, your objection to al jazeera can't be motivated by the fact that tehy are f unded by bad people. it must be something else.
i never suggested any obligation. i'm saying that it's unreasonable to disqualify factual reporting on the basis that you don't like the people that funded it. object to the framing, or even to the actors themselves, but the reporting of facts is done by all kinds of actors, and it's up to readers to understand biases in even factual reporting and come to their own conclusions.
they don't need to believe it is the only place to get accurate information to post accurate information from there
How do you personally determine when a right wing propaganda outlet is telling you the truth?
I assume the facts are right in most media. it's the framing you gotta watch out for.
Why would you assume the facts reported by the media wing of the government funding one of the sides being reported on is accurate?
Don't you agree that these leftists posting should wait until independent media verifies Qatar's claims before it gets posted?
fact checking is too easy and ubiquitous to think you can just lie about the facts, so innuendo and framing are the really pernicious aspects of modern propaganda thats framed as news. so, no, I don't think it's necessary to wait.
You don't think it is necessary to fact check authoritarian governments before believing what they tell you?
Wow. Just sit in that for a little bit.
what have they published that has been proven to be false?
this is an appeal to ridicule. it's not a rebuttal.
Biden supports Netanyahu's genocide. He isn't the direct cause, but he's circumvented Congress in order to sell him weapons, and Biden's administration has gone to bat for Netanyahu multiple times at the UN.
Biden should stop supporting genocide.
If he changes policy, why not? People can make mistakes. Ideally, I'd rather not support someone who has such a past history and I'd be skeptical that the change is a long-term change rather than just trying to appeal to voters in the short-term, but given the other likely outcome, someone it certainly would be a lot better outcome.