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‘Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
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So Andrew Tate is a human trafficker scum of the earth, and we are trying to combat his message. That's alright, I agree, he's not a disease but a symptom.
Tate is taking an existing problem, which is the fact that young boys feel left out by society at large with feminism being mainstream. Don't get me wrong, go and empower women, but when boys have "a growing sense that somehow they must be mistreated and hated because they are boys and men" and "some can feel they are being stereotyped, or blamed for others’ actions", and things like “My son is reluctant to go to school due to bullying by a group of girls, he feels that there is a big power difference in schools, where boys are always punished, not listened to, and not believed.” happen, then that's a problem separate from the problems that feminism wants to solve.
Telling boys to help solve women's issues in response to them telling you they have problems of their own is what's causing this. And it's either you listening to them, or it's going to be people like Tate or Trump.
The Me Too movement opened a lot of eyes to just how widespread sexual violence against women is. And how women see men, justifiably, as threats until proven otherwise.
But as the person who is perceived as a threat and isn’t, that doesn’t feel good. Thinking that my gender makes me a horrible scary monster would definitely fuck a boy up.
But there is another truth not mentioned: Males who were victims of sexual violence and rightfully thought the MeToo movement would help bring that to light as well were instead ridiculed and thrown out. Male victims of both male and female sexual violence are still not heard, which should have been part of the movement's focus. The recent reminder post about the man who tried to found a shelter for male victims but ended up broke and his efforts ignored and eventually disbanded should have been a strong ally for the movement, so the push for feminism rings somewhat hollow for those victims, even as they do support the message presented, but will not benefit from the movement's successes.
I remember reading a post once that pondered on why there are so many gentle giants, why a lot of naturally tall muscular men seem so chill.
A gentle giant on the chain responded "it's because you're taught from a very young age that if you pop off and lose it there's a really good chance you're going to kill someone"
I think men need to understand they are threats, in general it's not their fault they're threats, in general nobody is really expecting them to go ape on anyone, but ultimately men are threats.
The problem isn't new at all either. Someone on the right, just figured out how to create the incel culture and weaponize it. It's sexism all the way down on both sides when there shouldn't be sides at all. It's the culmination of the social construct known as gender.
The problem is not just that someone on the right talks to men. The problem is, nobody on the "left" does. Tell me, what is the "left's" ideal of a happy and successful man?
The Fantastic Masculinity of Newt Scamander
Freedom from work
Men would have time to make friends, cultivate hobbies, and meet girls if they weren't working multiple jobs with odd hours or taking as much overtime as they can.
Liberals don't want to talk about reducing the amount of work men have to do to keep up, though. They only want women to work more!
Yeah, may the almighty line keep going up.
But that's beside the point, work is one side of it, my point is that there is no "ideal man" picture out there, nothing to aspire to. The ideal male identity is only described in context of how they treat women. Which is important sure, being kind to everyone, but still, what makes a man these days?
Kids are asking these questions, looking for role models, and all they see answering is Tate. Everyone else in the mainstream just tells them that their ideal is "not to be a rapist".
Why don't boys look up to their fathers? I'll tell you! It's because daddy is always at work.
Girls have the same problem with their mothers also working, but the schooling system has actually (partially) solved the problem. Teaching, especially pre-K, is dominated by women. Even if class sizes are too large for any one female teacher to fulfill the role of a model they still have a huge field to choose from and I think that helps a lot. We need men to become teachers if we aren't going to liberate men from work.
Women hate it when men have anything to do with young children. Try being a dad and taking your own child to the park in this country. There's a good chance you'll have to prove which child is yours to a cop, because parenting while male isn't acceptable behavior. And you want a man to accept the liability of existing near 30 children that aren't his, possibly without one of his own around? That's just asking to get SWATed.
No, society hates it when men have anything to do with young children and we are products of that society. Women didn't make caring for young children into "women's work", society did that. Women didn't make men having a life outside of work unacceptable, society did that.
Don't blame women for what is a societal problem. That's incredibly reactionary.
Although, I'm skeptical that male kindergarten teachers get SWATed all that often at school 🙄
I will blame the individual women who call the police on a man taking his child to the park, and I will blame you as an individual for enabling them.
What the fuck, how am I enabling them? This is a societal problem! Under class society the reproduction of labor is for women (so care-taking, childbearing, child-rearing, early teaching, etc) and commodity production is for men (so engineering, manufacturing, construction, skilled and technical labor, etc). Men who break this societal role and engage in the reproduction of labor are seen as freaks and deviants that must be put back in their place, by force if necessary. This is a serious problem, but it's certainly not women's fault (or mine) that society has these rigid gender roles that we need to struggle against. It's all of our jobs, men and women, to fix society and thus fix this problem.
You are enabling them by talking out of your ass on their behalf. I mean, rigidly adhering to and strictly enforcing traditional gender roles is what feminism is all about, amirite?
When a man takes his child to the playground, and some mom there calls the cops on him for being near children while male, I suspect there's nothing about "traditional gender roles" going on here. But for a moment let's pretend there is. You're telling me that women are trying to gatekeep childcare in the same way men have tried to gatekeep, say, STEM jobs. Okay, why is it "That's their problem and they need to sort their shit out or else" when men do it, but "No we've got to go fix society together" when women do it? Is it because you're a god damned hypocrite?
I'm more likely to believe that, just as Republicans are told by their preachers that Democrats are baby eating evil demons, women are similarly told to believe men are all sexual predators. A man shows up and it's "okay, who's he here to rape?" If I were to ask you "Okay, what action does our innocent dad who's just taking his child out to play need to take to not have that happen to him?" Your response will almost certainly be "Oh I dunno, have you tried not being a rapist?" To which the reply will come back "Yep. I'm in my 36th year of not raping anyone. But I still get treated like this."
Naw man, women aren't responsible for how they think or act, ya gotta fix society. So, millennial dads have been stepping up, they're considerably more present in their children's lives than previous generations of men, way less likely to report having never changed a diaper, and they're treated like shit for it by women. This is not women's fault, it's "society."
I think it's society's fault that there are diaper changing stations in women's rooms but not men's rooms. That's society's fault, whatever agency is responsible for the ADA, that governs how wide bathroom doors have to be and how high light switches go above the floor needs to get on that shit.
What I have seen of feminism is it's okay for women to say "I miss when men died in wars" but it's not okay when men say "Get back in the kitchen." I've been often told - and NEVER shown - that feminism is about "equality." Which is why I ain't one. Feminists would rather have me as an enemy and a boogieman than an ally. I shall oblige.
Women aren't the ones in charge of society and they never have been. It's not like there's a matriarch that's telling women "men are all coming to kidnap your children". That's something created by the literal government in the form of the Stranger Danger propaganda campaign and then spread by mass media. Women didn't do that. I hate to break it to you, but men did.
But it's also not your fault, just because other men did this.
You're really confusing liberal feminism with feminism as a broader movement. Liberal feminists love to individualize sexism and claim that the cause of sexism is bad individuals. That's an incredibly wrong headed idea that fails to actually address the root causes of sexism (class society) and instead just heaps blame onto individual men for being baddies. Sadly, because we live in a liberal society, liberal feminism has become a dominant ideology and so then men like you see the obvious problems and just assume this applies to all feminism.
And that's not your fault either. That's the fault of class society, again, which wants to atomize and individualize feminism so we don't build solidarity.
That's the problem right there. Feminism (our at least your brand of feminism) somehow removes women from society absolving them from any responsibility of the negatives they may be a part of.
At least in America the second most powerful group in society has always been white women so the idea that men have dictated all the negatives of American society is bullshit. How is it that men are responsible for 40% of slave owners being white women and 52% of Trump voters in 2016 being white women? It's 2024 at what point do we hold women responsible for still holding on to ass backwards gender roles and stereotypes when we have so much info that prove most if not all of it is bullshit?
How is it that I can keep saying "it’s also not your fault, just because other men did this" and then you read this as "men are responsible"?
At what point do you realize that I'm saying you shouldn't hold individuals responsible for structural problems or blame sexism on the actions of individual people? I keep saying this over and over, but the root of the problem is class society and is not just bad people having bad ideas. The world historical defeat of women was the consequence of the invention of private property and the modern family, but men aren't responsible for that and neither are women. Men who invented Stranger Danger were products of their material conditions. These are just the material forces at work. You're doing this liberal thing where you individualize the problem and think you can fight sexism by stopping sexist people, but the only way we can actually stop it is by breaking the material conditions that reproduce sexist ideology.
Blaming women or men is unproductive. The problem, as I keep saying, is class society. As long as the reproduction of labor is relegated to women then both men and women are going to suffer, and that's not something that can be fixed by a individual simply not being sexist.
I get your point. I am not saying I didn't cry a bit the first time I actually listened to Cats In The Cradle's lyrics. Or the other times.
Also, I'd rather have my kid have their own role model, not to have to share a government issued one with 30 other kids. Fuck.
In that case, men need to work less so we don't have to use pre/elementary/middle/high schools to replace the parental figure.
Also maybe abolish the nuclear family and go back the premodern gens (i.e. extended family community) so that boys have lots of men in their family to look up to. Even if they don't have a dad they might have an uncle, grandpa, or one of their 20 older cousins to look up to.
It's as if you are saying people should be brought up by their families and not mass media, ads and random influencers
I'm really worried about the iPad toddlers and who they're going to grow up to be.
This is one of the reasons I'm terrified to have kids. How the hell do you deal with other parents' failures? Your kid either gets to be a mindless consoomer due to peer pressure, or a social pariah because he doesn't live his life on a screen.
Hell, I have problems with maintaining ties IRL. How is a kid supposed to deal with that?
Bingo. Well said
I see feminism as a logical first step towards true egalitarianism. As in: the patriarchy is/was a real thing, and women are/were impacted. Modern feminism is in some ways an over correction (but as a movement is completely justified). Hopefully future societies will bring the needle closer to even/fair/just than ever, and we are currently witnessing temporary (but significant) backlashes.
Edit: not sure why downvote? I clearly acknowledged the importance and validity of feminism, while sharing my opinion that an egalitarian society is the goal state, where all persons are respected regardless of what they are. Is that not the goal? To live in a world where specific groups don't need to fight for rights, visibility and respect?
Not the person downvoting, but my comment was mostly about that boys and men do experience their own problems, and they are not being listened to. I am specifically saying "feminism is all good, but has nothing to do with this, and does not even aim to solve this".
You then went, "well yeah, but first feminism before we get there". It's like as if there was a piece about feminism and someone went, "First we have to solve climate change, then we can talk about women's issues!". The problem is that men are getting left behind. Not with rights or visibility or anything like that. It's more about having a voice, ideals and support.
The point is, this is not about feminism. Feminism is not a be all end all answer. And people keep pretending it is.
Feminism is not the end all be all is the core of my point as well.
I referred to the current backlash of boys seeking people like tate as a symptom of ongoing progress towards a more egalitarian future.
The whole thing is that this is not about feminism in any way. Viewing these boys' problems only through a lens of "how does this relate to feminism" is the problem. These boys' problems are not about feminism. This is not about women or women's issues.
The reason it becomes that is that both the right, which only listens to them to exploit them, and the left, which refuses to listen to them at all, says that their problems are about women.
Men and men's issues exist outside of the context of feminism as well.
Right! And it would be great to arrive at a societal level where we address everyone's needs!
Due to obvious reasons, the challenges of feminism are center stage currently.
I'm talking about decades long societal progress, where we arrive at a place where everyone is getting their needs met. We aren't advanced enough in our education or discourse or healthcare to provide that to everyone at once.
What I'm hearing from you is that men are a desirable sacrifice on the altar of equality.
You're risking serious social stability problems by justifying the ignoring of men's issues. There can be no equality as long as the problems of one sex are more important than the problems of the other.
Absolutely untrue. You are assuming my opinion, when I'm stating my observation.
I'm not ignoring men's issues, or suggesting that is good to do. In fact, I'm saying/agreeing it's absolutely true that men are currently being forgotten.
I'm saying humanity is not unified. Social respect is a system in hysteresis. A pendulum swinging. There is no eternal agenda, but hopefully a trend towards a healthy center. Previously, women and minorities were forgotten. Now, in a different way (and not surpassing the injustice.of the past, but still critically Important), men are not being discussed to a sufficient level.
I hope the future frees us of this. I am discussing decades past. And decades future