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Yeah, I mean just because they have something staked on the outcome doesn’t mean that the state of Israel isn’t an apartheid state. I don’t think any state is good, but separating citizens based on race or religion seems pretty fucking evil. And it is worse when you take an indigenous peoples land. As an American, I feel this deeply since we followed this same path dispossessing indigenous people while enslaving Africans. Not great… and I hope we start to rectify those evils sometime soon.
But jews lived next to non Jewish Arabs in Palestine for generations peacefully. And Jewish Arabs lived peacefully all over the Middle East. But the nekba changed those dynamics. Arab Jews are discriminated against in Israel and a lot have been ejected from their old Arab countries. The whole thing of boiling a person down to their ethnicity or religion just is not a great thing.
There needs to be a political settlement soon. Palestinians deserve better and Israelis deserve peace.
How do most Israelis feel about the West Bank or are they aware of it?
Is the West Bank the foundational issue/disagreement?
Every Israeli is aware of the West Bank (it's a huge chunk of land right at the center of the country, kinda hard not to be aware of it).
Almost nobody in Israel seriously considers "returning" the jewish parts of the WB, the are de-facto annexed.
I'd say Israelis are more concerned about Gaza than the WB.
Is that because Gaza is proving harder to annex and pacify than the WB?
Gaza was controlled and settled by Isrealis. In 2005 Israel, by mean of law and force, disengaged from the gaza strip unilaterally. In the process, relocated all the settlers. I don't think there's any will, national or political, to annex gaza, not realistically.
I will admit that I am not totally aware of the value of the land of the West Bank vs Gaza. But from what I've been reading and watching these few months on the history of the conflict, it seems that at some point the PLO stopped being violent after the second Infatada and Hamas took over Gaza and pushed them out to the West Bank. And ever since then the West Bank has been slowly carved up more and more by Jewish settlements, effectively making the Palestinian land in the WB never able to be contiguous, and thus making it impossible for there to be a Palestinian state to be formed there.
So if the WB land is valuable to the Israelis, I cannot see how Gaza wouldn't be even more valuable. As Gaza has access to the sea, and there's all the recently found offshore gas fields that would fall into Gaza's EEZ if it ever were to be recognized as the Palestinian state.
So I don't get why they'd disengage and leave Gaza alone when it's valuable land, but they will also for obvious reasons never stop the blockade of Gaza. As an outsider that leans to the left, it seems like Gaza is purposefully put into the state that it's in, to keep a threat around, so the conservatives running Israel can stay in power.
Israel just wants peace, and will settle for stability.
Gaza is a pain point on both fronts.
Jews are indigenous to Israel too (backed by genetics and history). Also why are you so sure all Palestinians are indigenous to Israel? Studies have shown that there is a very good possibility that there has also been a large migration of Arabs into Palestine from the surrounding regions, as a consequence of conditions rapidly improving there.
Israel doesn't separate people based on race and religion, there are Muslim Arab judges, cops, doctors, programmers, etc. A few years ago a bunch of programmers from Gaza got permission to work in Israel due to shortages - these guys are literally Arab, Muslim and come from enemy territory.
Arab Jews are discriminated against in Israel? You mean Mizrahi Jews which are the largest Jewish group in Israel and have the exact same rights as other people in Israel?
Or did you mean Arab Israelis who have the pleasure of living in (relative) freedom, when compared to Arabs elsewhere in the middle east (and as I stated before, also aren't discriminated against)?
Israelis deserve peace, and Palestinians definitely deserve better - but it is their responsibility as a people to make their situation better. Israeli leadership currently sucks but the Israeli population in general has gone above and beyond in filling the void the government left. The same can be done by the Palestinians if they really wanted to, but it seems many of them really just want us dead at all costs.
Absolutely with you!
Ok, hang on...
What do you mean by this? Whose responsibility? Palestinians? They have a responsibility to improve their situation....
Israel is an occupying force. Surely Israeli forces and settlers should leave occupied West Bank to start with. Then there can be a discussion about how Palestinians can improve their situation.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/6/who-are-israeli-settlers-and-why-do-they-live-on-palestinian-lands
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141572
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/these-are-biblical-lands-promised-to-us-jewish-settlers-in-west-bank-hope-gaza-conflict-will-help-their-cause
When the British occupiers left Israel, Israelis built a country, and Palestinians went to war.
When the Israeli occupiers left Gaza, Palestinians started building rockets.
When the British Occupiers left the East Coast we, the Americans, started to build a nation while the shiftless Indians just tried to fight it. We killed them and dispossessed them of their land and civilized them.
Thank goodness we destroyed their ways of life (destruction of the buffalo (olives)). And removing them from their wealth sure made it easy for us to give out our settlers land for free (bought with Indian blood). It also had the side effect of forcing the Indian into our colonial system and they were cheap labor!
There are literally zero parallels here to Israel. I don’t know why I even thought of any of this.
Keep on bombing those children in Gaza!