this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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I feel like im going nuts.We are watching the destructon of a civillian population take place,cheered on by western goverments and media.I just feel sick
Is it really cheered?
Most people only agree that the murders on civilians started by Hamas were absolutely horrible and unnecessary. As for what is coming after I don't think normal people are happy about either.
I haven't seen any Western government that matters condemn it, at least.
The Irish
Oh yeah fair enough.
“But they are allowed to defend themselves” says the Western presidents.
This has nothing to do anymore with defending themselves. This is just another path to their genocide mission.
I'm curious. Put yourself in Israel's shoes. You've been massively attacked by Hamas from Gaza.
What would you do next? How would you approach this war?
How would you defend yourself to make sure this never happens again.
If i try to invade your house and take it for myself, if i make you a second class citizen and subject you to constant violence and dehumanization using disproportionate force, you have every right to shoot me in the face.
If i lock you in an open air prison and arrogantly hold a huge trance festival dorectly outside the walls of your prison that celebrates peace, love, and happiness, with 0 regard for you as a human being, while you and your family waste away under my opression, I'd deserve to be shot, because thats fucking demented, unnecessary and quite frankly, callous to the point of being soulless.
If i even once had the nerve to suggest the festival celebrated peace between me and the people who are locked in said prison and cant even attend because their race inst allowed outside of those walls, even if they could afford the expensive as fuck tickets, when they are destitute because of being locked in this prison, than that would make me so fucked up, I wouldn't blame anyone for shitting on my corpse afterwards.
And finally, i can say this no problem because its so fucking easy not to do any of these things, even on my worst days of my life, i have no worries that i might be so stupid to do any of these things even for a second.
I mean not flattening the homes of a million people (and therefore creating the next generation of even more extreme terrorists) would be a good start, because these people and their children will be out for blood after this.
You won't flatten houses. Got it. Now that we've covered what you won't do. Can we focus on what you would do?
Well... I'd first push Hamas back to Gaza's borders, then implement a ceasefire like the ones that happened in 2008 and 2012 and actually uphold my end of it (including lifting the blockade, which Israel didn't do even after agreeing to do it). Maybe add in the ceasefire conditions that the people responsible for the murders of civilians during the attack get turned over to the Hague to be trialed for their war crimes (though that'd be throwing stones from a glass house). There, that's the only thing required to end all Hamas violence basically forever.
If I wanna hit two birds with one stone and deal with Palestinian terrorism for at least the next century, I'd try to get the PNA and Hamas to form a united government (shouldn't be that hard; they tried in 2014 and it was Israel who opposed them) and continue where the Oslo accords left off (the whole thing was basically done until a Zionist assassinated the then-PM and Netnyahu, who came in his place, called the whole thing off).
We've already almost had this outcome a few times, and it was always Israel who didn't uphold their end of the deal, so it shouldn't be that hard.
You might be wondering by now why there's basically no military response, well the answer is that a military response is the wrong answer to the conflict if you ever want it to end; airstriking Palestinians and generating civilian casualties not only makes peace harder to get, it also generates recruits for Hamas.
Edit: Just gonna mention that none of what I said is a radical or politically untenable position. This would've all happened in 2008 if the Israeli PM was anyone other than Bibi.
Edit 2: There are two possible solutions to this conflict: A two state solution (a Palestinian state that can protect itself and freely manage its internal affairs ala Oslo accords) and a one state solution (Israel just gives all Palestinians citizenship and voting rights). The latter would've been ideal, but that's basically impossible now so we're stuck with the former. Anyway, what I wanna say is: Israel's current one and a half state solution (an open air prison in Gaza and a Bantustan in the West Bank) won't—can't—work.
You've just been massively attacked. You push them back into Gaza sure. And then you just sit at the border with a ceasefire, watching them parade hostages on the street. Ok. But you'll also lift the blockade, so it'll be even easier to get in materials for new rockets, weapons and ammunition.
In what world will Hamas give themselves up to Hague for war crime tribunals?
And why would that stop Hamas? You've accomplished nothing.
Your first paragraph is nothing but fiction.
Let's summarize what you want to do. Push Hamas into Gaza. Let them do whatever they want in Gaza. Lift blockades so they can amass even more weapons. Hope that they will turn themselves over to be tried for warcrimes in Exchange for a ceasefire. And then that's that. Done and dusted, Hamas will never be a problem after that.
Are you for real?
Well obviously as part of the ceasefire hostages need to be returned.
It did in 2008 and 2012. Hamas has respected its ceasefires so far.
Bro lifting the blockade comes after the ceasefires, not before. I'm not theorizing here; we've already had two of those (that Israel refused to follow).
In what world did any of it stop hamas? Do you have any idea how long it takes to amass that many rockets, weapons and parts for it to go under the radar? It very clearly didn't stop anything.
Look at the attack. Look at the naked hostages being paraded on the streets and tell me it stoped Hamas in 2012.
And "bro" even if the blockade is lifted after a "ceasefire" what exactly does that change? Are they physically not capable of starting to amass new weapons after a ceasefire? "Oh but they're not allowed to as the ceasfire" to which you'll get a massive. "Oh no.... anyway"
You'd know if you read about the two ceasefires I mentioned. Whenever Hamas made a ceasefire, they've generally kept it until it became clear Israel had no intention of lifting the blockade as promised.
Why should the 2012 ceasefire, which fell through because Israel didn't follow it, stop Hamas in 2023. If the blockade had been lifted you'd have had a point, but it wasn't.
Uh... The threat of another blockade? That's kind of why people follow ceasefires; they want the fire to cease.
Agree. I can acknowledge Hamas is fucked up, while also acknowledging Israel is using a bigger stick to simply be more fucked up in a more organized way now.
Both sides are murdering countless innocent civilians. This whole situation is horrible. There are no winners in this war.
I'm still baffled by what Hamas was thinking this thing would achieve. It's giving Israel the excuse to completely wipe out Gaza. It's one thing to destroy the wall and attack a military base, but murdering entire villages was only going to have one outcome. It's like they wanted the opposite of Palestinian liberation.
They want to go out in "a blaze of glory" rather than fade away. Israel has been clearing them out slowly and nobody is stopping it, but if Hamas provokes Israel into doing it quickly maybe that will generate enough outrage that the world will try to stop it.
While Israel has been chipping away at Palestinian land in the West Bank, Palestinian population continues to rise, and rise faster than Israeli population at that. And we don't see the West Bank doing these kind of attacks, only Gaza.
https://www.statista.com/chart/20645/palestine-and-israel-population-growth/
They ain't fading away, regardless of Israel's attacks and oppression. The "blaze of glory" is just terrorism.
It makes perfect sense if you read up on the history of the conflict, particularly over the last 30 years.
Palestine's reward for trying to find a diplomatic solution has been Western-sanctioned destruction and massacre every single time. We westerners have largely ignored that their land has been taken, hospitals and infrastructure bombed, news reporters and civilians shot in cold blood, and no meaningful repercussions for any of it. They've even been blockaded for sixteen years.
Think of it like a smaller-scale Tet Offensive. It didn't seem to make a ton of sense for the Vietnamese to launch an offensive against the South Vietnam and their powerful allies either.
And when you consider how unreasonable it is for 1.1 million people to evacuate in a day, remember also that these people aren't allowed out in the first place.
My guess is that they wanted to provoke Israel into attacking, hoping that the rest of the nations in the area would use the atrocities as a justification to attack Israel.
They must know that the support for Palestinians by neighbouring countries has only been limited to lip service by most Arab countries for decades. They're all too happy to buy Israeli tech to spy on their own populations, that's basically the bargain they made to stay in power.
There's basically only Iran and Lebanon that are actual "allies", and that's basically more Iran using those groups to make things difficult for the US, and not anything that would actually help Palestinians.
They're doing the Hitler strategy of taking everyone on the ship down with them, in the hope that it will inspire extremists elsewhere, and to inspire future generations to do the same because surely they are the victims here. Didn't work out that way for Germany in the end now did it?
Also, I'm not saying that Israel is in anyway justified erasing 1.000.000 people off the map. They are also terrible.
This is what I don't get either. Israel's reaction is 100% predictable. They knew their attack would result in thousands of their own people getting killed. Did they have an objective that they thought would help improve the lives of Palestinians living in Gaza?
If Hamas attacks Israel, Israel's current gov stays in power. If Israel attacks Hamas, Hamas stays in power.
It's in the interest of all in power to keep this going. Peace destroys both their political platforms.
Yeah there's one universal truth in war: everyone loses. Maybe it's their life, their sanity, their resources, or their supporters, but everyone loses.
The ruling class wins.
Me too, it's completely insane
Which western governments are cheering it on?
Cheering maybe not. Unconditional support for effectively genocide? Absolutely.
Pretty much all of them?
I follow mainstream media all day and you're so fucking wrong. You don't know what you're talking about, or more likely: you've an agenda of your own.