this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
747 points (97.9% liked)
Europe
8324 readers
1 users here now
News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe 🇪🇺
(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, 🇩🇪 ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures
Rules
(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)
- Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
- No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
- No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.
Also check out [email protected]
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
What's going on in Denmark?
It's base 20 like in France, plus the quirk that we have an ordinal numeral way of saying half integers, i.e. 1.5 is "half second", 2.5 is "half third", 4.5 is "half fifth". So 92 is said as "two and half fifth times twenty". We've since made the "times twenty" implicit for maximum confusion, so it's just said as "two and half fifths".
Also, the ordinal numeral system for halves is only really used for 1.5 these days, so the numbers don't really make sense to anyone. When speaking to other Scandinavians, we often just say "nine ten two".
Why don't we just change it to the more sensible system then? Because language is stubborn.
Now imagine moving there as a foreigner from a normal country and someone telling you their phone number! It's like having a micro stroke.
When you need a math degree for basic communication
🤣🤣
Interesting. ~~Regionally, some~~ Germans measure time like this, i.e. "half two" is 01:30 resp. 13:30. (Which is different from English, where people who say "half two" mean "half past two".)
I know very little about Danish, but I learned that Danes slur the middle of most words. So I suspect you actually pronounce even less of the word than you'd write..?
Belgian French gives me hope.
--
[Edited: Usage is not regional]
This isn't regional nor "some", I never met a German wo doesn't. Sure, there is "13 o'clock 30" and both are valid but I'd say the default is still the half system.
When it comes to quarters, there are regional differences and it's a common "ice breaker" or small talk topic when people from all over Germany come together.
I am dumb. I confused this with dreiviertel vs. Viertel vor.
Even then there's a pretty clear difference.
Good comparison here https://www.giga.de/ratgeber/specials/dreiviertel-10-viertel-12-wie-spaet-ist-es-wirklich/
When we say "half two" we also mean 13:30. It's a pain when in Britain.
And yeah, I guess in pronouncing you'd say 92 as "to'å'l'fems" rather than "to-og-halv-fems".
It's pronounced "toh-år-hal-fems".
That's 3 syllables, because the first two are glissando, but even the most rural person needs some consonants between the rest to make any sense.
I’ve run into Americans for whom “half two” means 13:30. I like it but it confuses everyone.
So the Danish can do this bullshit with everyday numbers and it’s cool because language , but I mention that it’s 70 degrees outside and everyone starts arguing about metric?
Everything is arbitrary, I’m gonna go build a dresser in multiples of rabbit foot while you all figure something out.
Danish people are environmentally damaged by the flatness of their country and the rest of Scandinavia pitty them. We will take care of this. We will teach them how to speak. Soonish.
Temperature in fahrenheit is just as arbitrary as celsius. Fahrenheit makes sense from the perspective of human experience while celsius is very relevant to water. It’s really handy if you live in a area with snowy winters. Celsius is standard all around the world, while Fahrenheit is used in a handful of places.
When we talk with other people in fx English we use their numbering system, and not our own
And to confuse even further, the cardinal number (ninety-two) is "to-og-halv-fems" in Danish without the *20. But if you need the ordinal number (92nd), then we add in the x20 as in "to-og-halv-fem-sinds-tyvende". Danish is very easy and transparent 😊
And yall give us shit about using imperial measurements
For what it's worth, the US doesn't use imperial anymore. It's "US Customary Units". It's mostly a mix of metric and units based on metric. The US uses volts, amps, watts, and seconds which are metric. The inch, by definition, is 25.4mm. I'm not sure how the US gallon (less volume than the Imperial gallon) is defined. Food content is given in calories and grams.
I'm also not sure how temperature is defined. Originally, temperature units were set so that fresh water boiled exactly 180 degrees above it's freezing temperature. To avoid negative numbers, zero Fahrenheit was set to the freezing temperature of sea ice.
I like our weird numbers tho 🥰
They're lovely, aren't they?😀
I have to admit, as a French myself I found relief in that discovery. And thank you very much for the explanation.
I was confused by the "2 and" at first, then I realize you put the smallest part of the whole number first. It makes perfectly sense if you count in base 20.
We also have an habit to count in base 12 and half 12 in France. Like "half a dozen" (6) or "one dozen and half" (18), but only for multiple of 6.
I will now say "quatre vingtaine et demie" instead of "quatre-vingt-dix" just to tease my fellow Belgians (who say "nonante" and "septante" instead of "soixante-dix" et "quatre-vingt-dix")
EDIT: As a matter of fact, I will rather say "trois et demi-cinquième vingt" for 73 because it sounds better. Now I see it.
If I am correct, the 3rd 20 is everything between 60 and 79. The half-3rd 20 is everything between 70 and 79. So 7 and half-2nd 20 would be 37?
How would you say 40, 60 and 80 then ? 2nd 20, 3rd 20 and 4th 20?
The weird numbers only start at 50.
60: tre sinde tyve ( three times twenty).
80: fire sinde tyve ( four times twenty)
30 (tredive) you cited seems to be the exception, as it's not “halbtots” or something.
Indeed, fyrre (40) is also clearly related to four (or fourth), it only kicks in at 50.
You can recognize the numbers where this system is in place by the 's' at the end, which is a remnant of the "-sindstyve" ending meaning "times twenty".
If it worked for 30 and 40 they would be "halvandens" and "andens".
I've always found the Danish numbers intriguing. I understand the whole "halvfem-sinds-tyve"- thing and the other ones of similar origin but I can't wrap my head around "elleve" and "tolv". Do you remember the origin of those?
It's literally the same in English as well, eleven and twelve are clearly related.
Not really, but they're essentially the same as the German "elf" and "zwölf", so we probably got them from the same place as them ;)
Wiktionary suggests the common proto-Germanic root of eleven/twelve, elf/zwölf are likely to have been "ainalif" and "twalif" - "one left over" and "two left over".
You can thank Proto-Germanic for that.
In Czech, we say „čtvrt na osm“ (quarter to eight), „půl osmé“ (half of eighth) and „tři čtvrtě na osm“ (¾ to eight) to mean
19:15,19:30and19:45, respectively, so I kinda get it.Similarly, in German, 🕢=„halb acht“.
TIL that it not French with the weirdest way to count. I still don't really get the Danish way. Even with your explanation.
It’s not really an explanation, just a table where I leave the linguistically inclined to figure it out. The point is, the “s” at the end is short for “×20” and “half fifth” is short for ●●●●◖ = 4½ (four and half of the fifth).
Thanks. Do you know the history of that?
Maybe the Danish don't just count with their fingers to 10, but include their toes... So 10 fingers + 10 toes = 20?
"Four score and seven years ago" from the Gettysburg Address... Many languages have or had words for counting in 20's. They've just mostly gone out of fashion.
We also do this in germany
Ja, ich spreche auch ziemlich gut Deutsch. Ich würde aber lieber die Angelsächser mit meiner Fähigkeit „čtvrt“ (tschtwrt) zu aussprechen beeindrucken.
Username checks ou... oh sorry, I forgot where I am, for a moment.
*czechs
Yeah, this is why I chose it – it represents me well. And not only is feddit.de the fastest Lemmy server for me, I spend lots of time with the Germans because Czechs are fine with Reddit and czech-lemmy.eu is empty.
Now I followed your link and was overwhelmed by my intuitive understanding of the subtleties of the Czech language ... even better than reading Dutch ... until I noticed the "translate" in the URL :'-(.
Haha sehr gut ;)
Funny enough, I grew up saying "quarter of eight" to mean 19:45. It took until my mid-20s to realize its probably a regional thing because, after I left Philadelphia (my home city) and moved to Chicago, everyone thought I meant 20:15.
Mmm, American using 24h time. I know nothing else about you but this gets you +0.5 on an attractiveness scale.
Oh! In New England "quarter of" is 15 minutes before the hour (19:45) and "quarter after" is 15 minutes after the hour (20:15). That might explain why my colleagues in Alabama were surprised when I left a meeting at 9:45 when I had clearly warned them I had a hard stop at quarter of ten!
Interesting distinction none of us picked up on!
We play on Hardcore mode.