this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2024
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Even if organized for a good purpose, gathering white dudes together as a social group feels icky as all hell. Like are there really specific "white male" issues that need to be addressed (edit: by the campaign) or did they just feel obligated to continue the pattern?
I haven't been tracking the speakers at these gatherings, but it also seems like the white dudes call gets all kinds of political and Hollywood stars, because almost all the VP hopefuls are white men and white men already have a disproportionate influence in entertainment because of lazy corporate sexism and racism.
A friend who i like and trust very much shared a link. Because it came from him, i looked into it. I thought they had a nice writeup about contesting the white dude image. So it seemed less like "we're white men who like Harris" and more like "please don't think we're all trumpsters because of how we look."
Yes, the issue that needs to be addressed is the existence of that "ick factor" itself.
"Hispanic women for Harris!" Yay!
"Black nonbinaries for Harris!" Yay!
"White guys for Harris!" That's disgusting.
You know why young white men tend to be attracted to the Republican party? Because this is how the fucking Democrats talk to and about them. "Well the blue team seems to hate me, and the red team seems to hate everyone who isn't me. Guess I'm on the red team."
Do you see how easy it would be to starve the Republicans of support by keeping your own racism to yourself?
I'm sorry what Democratic party representative is saying white men are disgusting exactly? Surely a random Anonymous person online doesn't speak for a political party does it? That seems like an absurd line of reasoning.
If you think your opinions are worthless, why share them?
I'm sorry I think you must have meant to respond to someone else?
I... Must have? I can't even find the comment I was responding to in this thread
No worries. I read your comment like 10 times trying to figure out how it related to mine until I thought okay it must have been a mistake.
Such white man's burden. I'm one of them. Suck it up and go live your life, we're living on easy mode. Whatever issues you have in yours aren't because you're white or male.
I'm a white male and you don't fucking speak for me. Keep your prejudices to yourself.
That saying is about the racist trope of the white man saving minorities from themselves, which makes no sense in this context.
Noooo, don't actually read into the saying and interpret it for what it's actually supposed to mean! Just accept that the customer is always right! /s
You are right, that was a very teo left feet thing to do!
The usage I've understood is in mocking white men for imagining they're carrying the weight of society and being unfairly ignored or maligned despite their "burden". I've never looked into the origin and I'm happy to better understand the context, but hope this explanation bridges the gap in what I meant.
"The White Man's Burden" (1899), by Rudyard Kipling, is a poem about the Philippine–American War (1899–1902) that exhorts the United States to assume colonial control of the Filipino people and their country.
It has nothing to do with being ignored or maligned by their own society for being white. It is basically the opposite, an obligation to interfere because they are so damn awesome they are obligated to save the non-white people from themselves. Any movie where a white guy goes to a foreign place to 'save' the local people is based on the white man's burden. For example, the Last Samurai and Avatar (with the blue people).
I'm totally down to say the modern version I've seen is not a good translation of the original sentiment, but the "burden" in each case isn't really about helping others. Neither viewpoint is undertaking the "burden" for altruistic reasons, they want the praise and rewards for all they feel they've done. They're "good people" because they stoically gave to their lessers, and everyone should recognize that. The colonialists got to live as lords and be praised by their fellow white people for their good deeds, while the modern white man is bitter because he doesn't feel rewarded, even if only by everyone saying "white guys are great".
It has nothing to do with being rewarded or praise or lack of praise or disdain.
That's not its original meaning at all.
Yes, per my last comment I hadn't previously looked into the origin and was happy to better understand the context.
Icky
Was curious and ended up looking at the live stream for a bit. From what I saw they largely talked about the need to be a part of solidarity with other group's struggles and a need to step up in that fight
(Also worth noting that it was not organized by the Harris campaign as the article points out)
Well the feeling of ickiness you get is certainly something that needs to be addressed.
Meaning what?
Meaning that there's an undercurrent of distrust in "groups of white guys" that isn't good. There's certainly been groups that have done horrible things. But, as evidenced by this one, there's also groups that are wholesome and well-meaning.
So the thing they're trying to address is that you shouldn't need to feel ickiness just because it's a group of white guys.
Ew. No. Racially restrictive groups are good when there's a reason for the group to need to seek solidarity in the face of discrimination or to seek support for group-specific issues, neither of which apply to white men in America. White men do not need racial organizations.
Ah, thanks for clarifying.
I’m sure the idea of something being okay for some races but not for others has a name.
Yes, it's called historical precedent. And not even historical anymore, just ask anyone in downtown Nashville.
If you want to use historical precedent to make reductionist takes, really nobody should ever organize into any kind of group because if you dig far enough back everyone has violent, savage ancestors. History has proven that all groups of people have, at some point, done horrible things. There should be no United Nations because literally every government has a dark history. Also, how can we trust teachers (who each have had some horrible things in their ancestry) to teach our children?! Doctors should not provide care because there is a long history of systemic abuse in the field.
At least be consistent.
As for current events, maybe separate the good and the bad instead of just labeling everyone in a group bad. Historically and in the present lots of groups fought and bled for equity. You’re shitting all over it.
As a white guy, yes there are issues that need to be addressed like our particular type of toxic masculinity that is based on entitlement that is a common precurser to being an incel. Think of all the stereotypes where your first thought is "white guy", those are problems because they frequently lead to violence when they fall to hateful ideologies.
They are different problems that mostly consist of not being terrible instead of overcoming obstacles, but they are atill problems that need addressed.
I understand you would think that, but it's actually more of a reversal of harmful stereotypes "taking back my identity" kind of situation
There has never been a time in history when white men focusing on their identity as white men hasn't either started at or devolved into white supremacy. I don't think they're going to speed run this into a new Klan after a single virtual gathering, but there's a good reason to consider white-focused organizing distasteful.
There is a bit of an ick factor. But I think the counter argument would be that other white males who are on the fence would see this group, find theoretical solidarity, and potentially consider Harris.
That being said, as a white male, I'd feel weird joining a group that self-identified based on their white male-ness.
Nothing good ever comes from excluding X group based on sex, gender, skin color, or religious background. Literally how you end up with Syndrome from The Incredibles. It would be funny if it wasn't creating horrible things like Andrew Tate incel culture.
Keep everyone in the loop, nobody feels rejected, and you extinguish incel and populist instincts before they can flare up and cause major problems. A bit of love and affection goes a surprisingly long way.
I dunno, I'm just not on board with white male social groups, even if we think there are theoretical undecideds who want to see that they didn't get left out of all the special identity gatherings. I don't have or want racial solidarity with other whites, even if we're supposedly "taking it back". We'd all be rightly critical of a "white men for Trump" group for reasons beyond just it being for Trump.
God, I hope they can resist the urge to organize a "straights for Harris" call.
Men's groups where you talk about things like how to lend your power can be great. Those "white male" issues are usually around not properly recognizing the societal power disparity. Or being someone who is seem as having power because they look like any other white man, but don't because you're gay, or trans, or short, or skinny.
To describe a group coming together for something as icky. Well that makes you icky.
Shut up