this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
787 points (92.0% liked)

Science Memes

9194 readers
3729 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.


Sister Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 113 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

Surplusable farming is literally the basis on which all civilization is built

Like the whole point of the way things work for us now is that you don't have to be a farmer or a hunter or a gatherer to be able to have access to a consistent source of food.

People romanticize about the idealic agrarian past but human civilization was literally invented over how back breakingly difficult that kind of work is for people who aren't built for it.

[–] ashok36 74 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Also the fact that one bad year in your tiny part of the world means you and everyone you know die slow agonizing deaths. Fun!

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 month ago (2 children)

This is also a major point of livestock. If you have more produce than you can eat, feed the excess to some animals and they will keep those calories fresh and delicious over the winter.

[–] Shard 18 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Adding on to that, its not just the surplus produce. Its all the rest of the produce that's unusable by us humans.

When we grow something like corn, we're only growing it for the kernels that we can consume. We can't physiologically make use of the stalks, stems and leaves, but an animal like the goat? They'll chew up anything green and turn that into usable calories we humans can make use of.

[–] JJROKCZ 5 points 1 month ago

Doesn’t even need to be green, just any sort of plant or really any sort of organic matter. Eating goats that have lived off of old trash is probably not the best idea though

[–] Aceticon 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Which neatly raises the point of how modern large monoculture does a lot less of that kind of use of agricultural products unusuable by humans.

Absolutelly, the whole of a cow slaughtered in a slaughterhouse is famously used (down to the hoves) and nothing thrown out, however you don't see goats being raised on the unusable parts of a corn plant (whilst wheat straw is actually used as feed, for corn the silage for cattle made from it uses the whole plant including kernels not just the left-over unusable by humans parts).

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

livestock

Explains the name perhaps

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

This is part of the reason why early farming was so inefficient. Have a plot up the hill, have one in the valley, grow multiple crops, etc etc.

That's not done to have more food, that's done so you don't die when something bad happens.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago (2 children)

This is one of the things I find funny about modern day self sufficient communes. Subsistence farming is awful, industrialized farming is less awful, but still far more work than most are willing to ever do.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The issue is that the current farming techniques are not sustainable.

The fertilizers and pesticides used are burning the land, polluting the underground water pools and killing a bunch of animals and insects.

The agriculture needs to change to something sustainable.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Modern farming techniques consider sustainability, the larger problem is countries using traditional methods that are extremely harmful like burning forests.

[–] Aceticon 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

The industrial farming of corn in the US requires using hybrid corn strains to reach the yields it has, which in turn requires the use of fertilizers because the natural soils is incapable of sustaining the density of corn plants that hybrid varieties achive.

Those fertilizers in turn are mainly made from Oil, which is a non-renewable resource, making the whole thing unsustainable. It's is possible to make the fertilizers sustainably, it's just much more expensive so that's not done.

The US is so deeply involved (including outright military invasions) in the Middle East from where most of the oil comes because in the US oil it's not just a critical resource for Transportation and Energy, it's also a critical resource for Food because it's so incredibly dependent on corn (which is estimated to add up directly and indirectly to more than 70% of the human food chain there)

PS: There is a book called The Omnivore’s Dilemma which is a great read on this.

[–] Bertuccio 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

corn

On indirect consumption, corn is largely used to feed cattle, make high fructose corn syrup, and other products that are not directly eaten as corn.

This makes corn insanely inefficient as a food source.

[–] Aceticon 2 points 1 month ago

There is a book called The Omnivore's Dilemma which is a great read on this.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

But for now my PLA 3D printer filament is still cheap! Yay? =\ lol...why is everything so broken...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

why is everything so broken...

Greed

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

I mean...yeah. I was more lamenting rhetorically. 😅

[–] Blue_Morpho 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Those fertilizers in turn are mainly made from Oil,

Fertilizer is not made from oil. Oil/gas is used to power the factory but that doesn't make the farming unsustainable.

Because if you use the criteria of where we get our energy from, home gardening isn't sustainable either because your house is powered by oil/gas.

[–] Aceticon 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Fertilizers are made from Amonia which in turn is made using the Haber-Bosch process which requires fossil fuels to provide the necessary energy and as reactants (see this related article).

There is also "natural" fertilizer made from organic mass left over from other activities which would otherwise go to waste, but that's insufficient for large scale intensive farming (composting is fine for your community garden or even for supplementing low intensity agriculture, but not for the intensive industrial farming growing things like hybrid corn).

Finally, the use of techniques like crop rotation which lets letting fields lie fallow so that natural nitrate fixation occurs and the soil recovers do not make the soil rich enough in nitrates to support hybrid corn growing because, as I mentioned, the plant density is too high to be supported by natural soil alone without further addition of fertilizers.

[–] Blue_Morpho -2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Fertilizers are made from Amonia which in turn is made using the Haber-Bosch process which requires fossil fuels to provide the necessary energy and as reactants

That's exactly what I said! Fertilizer is not made from oil. The factory is powered by oil. Just like your home where you garden is powered by oil.

[–] Aceticon 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Natural Gas - which is not renewable - is a reactant and Oil is still involved indirectly as a means to generate the power needed for the process. This can be replaced but is more expensive.

That said, it's unclear to me if Oil is somehow used at the chemical plant to generate said energy (for example, to reach the necessary temperatures) or if it's even more indirect than that and it's just fuelling Power Generation plants which in turn provide electricity used in the heating, pressure generation and subsequent cooling for that process, in which case it could be replaced by something renewable.

If it is the latter case I have to agree that it's not quite as bad in the renewable sense as I thought.

[–] Blue_Morpho 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] Aceticon 3 points 1 month ago

Good news.

Guess my info on that was quite outdated.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

"Modern farming techniques consider sustainability"

Yeah sure. They consider sustainability in that the current generation of poisons they use haven't been proven unsustainable YET. When they are proven unsustainable, they'll move to the next generation, that hasn't been proven YET...

Also systemically annihilating everything except that one crop you want to grow makes your farmland an ecological desert, that doesn't sound very sustainable either.

Unless you're of the conviction that farmland shouldn't be in any way part of nature, and we should concentrate on just growing crops there and every other kind of life there should be discouraged, and by doing that as dense as possible we keep more space for actual nature.

Though i think farming that leaves meaningful room for (some) nature to coexist with it doesn't do that much worse in yield to make the modern 'kill everything' approach worth it. But we'll see what the future brings i guess.

But just being like 'modern farming techniques consider sustainability' seems pretty naive to me...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Modern agriculture uses ammonia pellets that more than half will evaporate by the time it enters the soil and it seeps into aquifers and rivers.

There is nothing sustainable with modern agriculture.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 month ago

In theory, some of those communes are cool. Way less wasteful than suburban living arrangements.

But I do worry about those communes, honestly. The demographics they attract are easy to abuse: aging conspiracy theorists with low education. If the commune owns the land, or even worse if an individual owns the land, then those people could be forced to leave and become homeless. Even if they did own property in the commune, it might be able to act as an HOA or local township and start charging them until they can claim the property that way.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

The Agricultural Revolution was a trap

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Q: what does a subsistence farmer do when something goes wrong?

A: they die.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

There's still different approaches to it though. The default industrial gigantic monocultures with massive aquifer drilling is for sure missing a few delayed, less visible costs in the equation. "Improve industrial farming, adjust it back to a more normal scale and add some diversity between the fields and rotate crops!" just isn't a very catchy slogan I guess.