this post was submitted on 18 Dec 2023
237 points (96.5% liked)

Technology

59452 readers
3822 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

US senators have urged the DOJ to probe Apple's alleged anti-competitive conduct against Beeper.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 44 points 11 months ago (19 children)

I don’t get it. iMessage is Apple’s service. Why are they obliged to open it up for everyone to use? Would it be nice? Yes, of course. Should Apple be legally required to open up access to their service?

[–] Zak 67 points 11 months ago (4 children)

The US Federal Trade Commission puts it this way:

a firm with market power cannot act to maintain or acquire a dominant position by excluding competitors or preventing new entry

It further explains that "market power" means:

the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors

Emphasis added. What the government might argue in this case is that Apple has market power in the online message space because it preloads its own messaging app on its smartphones, which I believe enjoy a majority market share in the USA. One remedy the government could seek is requiring Apple to allow third parties to develop clients for its messaging service.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] NocturnalMorning 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

They didn't, someone made an App to interface with it. Trying to shut that down is anti-competitive.

[–] btmoo 8 points 11 months ago (7 children)

It's also a huge security hole

[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago (10 children)

How? It's not a MitM or anything like that, it's connecting exactly how an Apple device would connect. Everything is still E2EE, just one of the ends can now be an Android device.

load more comments (10 replies)
load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

Businesses are naturally anticompetitive. It may or may not violate antitrust law. The two main categories are collusion with competitors to prevent new competition, or if they seek to gain or maintain a monopoly via shady methods (just a monopoly itself isn’t illegal though). I doubt if Apple conspired with Google here and it would be a stretch to say they have a monopoly, so it seems like a pointless case to me.

[–] btmoo 3 points 11 months ago (11 children)

It's not a public API. Hacking someone's private API is already against law - charging $$ for it moreso.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Reverse engineering an API is not illegal

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Lutra 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Ah, common misconception - hacking an API != creating a compatible program. ( reverse engineering)

Imagine a drill company has a special shape for its bits. Our law allows someone else to either.. make bits that can fit in that shape OR make their own drill that can accept those bits.

"BUT they copied!" - it doesn't have to be a copy to be compatible, and they don't even have to use the 'special shape' just be able to work with the special shape. The law does not allow for protections around that. Doing so would be by definition anti-competitive. Our anti competition laws or rather our IP protection laws are not intended in any way to 'ensure a monopoly'. The IP laws give a person a right to either keep something they do secret OR share that knowledge with the world so we all benefit, in exchange for a very limited monopoly.

Practically speaking, If I got the KFC Colonel to give me the list of 11 herbs and spices in a Poker game, and then started making my own delicious poultry that is totally cool. Likewise, If I figured out that all that was inside a Threadripper was blue smoke and started making my own blue smoke chips, the law is ok with that.

In this case roughly, Having a public facing endpoint. And then saying that the public can access that endpoint is cool Saying that only the public using the code I alone gave them -- well... that's not been litigated a lot, but all signs point to no.

It's like Bing saying its for Safari only, and suing people who accessed it using Chrome. It is a logical claim, but the law does not provide that kind of protection/enforcement.


tl;dr these concepts are old but being newly applied to fancy technology. The laws in place are clear in most cases. A car maker can not dictate what you put in the tank. FedEX and UPS can't charge you differently for shipping fiction books or medical journals or self published stories. And they'd probably get anti-trust scrutiny they even told you what brand/style of boxes you had to use.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

They didn't hack it, they spoofed a device, they just tricked the systems around the api

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (2 children)

That counts as unauthorized access in the eyes of the law. It's a private system and they did not have any agreements permitting them to use it as they wanted.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Quite literally the text of the Computer Fraud and Abuse act. Unauthorized access of computer systems can get you 20-years at club fed. Seems like some of these people need a history lesson.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago (13 children)

Yes, they should be legally required to open up access to their service. No more walled gardens that hold a large number of users hostage.

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] holdthecheese 12 points 11 months ago (2 children)

You can argue that they're unfairly using monopoly power. Same reason why MS was forced to allow windows to switch browsers.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think the problem is that it's unnecessarily hardware locked. They shouldn't have to "open it up" insofar as anyone can access it from whatever app like beeper is doing. But it's only fair that they support other operating systems. They can still control it or even charge a fee to access it from other OSes.

[–] Uglyhead 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I wish this kind of thing was more spotlighted when Palm and Windows Phone developers were trying to use Google API’s to make apps for their OS’s and got shut down at every turn, eventually killing off the Palm and WP because of device lock-in on apps.

I still miss what Palm could have been before Google bent them over a barrel with their massively anti-competitive bs.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

Palm terrified them.

Palm apps were tiny, took trivial resources, and could provide a lot of what was done with new apps on Android. Dictionaries, calculators, games (I played monopoly on a Treo, it looked great). I watched Mp4 movies on a Treo.

Imagine Android with a Palm Subsystem so all those old Palm apps could run. It would've majorly slowed Android app adoption, perhaps even giving enough support to allow PalmOS architecture to develop into a competitor to Android.

[–] NOT_RICK 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

When imessage was announced they planned to bring it to other platforms. That died when they realized how much of a lock in it was

[–] Maggoty 5 points 11 months ago

If they're going to default message service to it then yes.

load more comments (12 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago (2 children)

At the root of this issue is that Google never built a messaging service that could survive Google's management shuffle. I understand people want Apple to bend the knee, but this is not their problem. It's perfectly fine for them to intercede Beeper's reverse engineering.

If you're an Android user and you need a messaging app, Signal is 100% open source, secure, and it works on iOS too, so tell your friends!

[–] rdri 14 points 11 months ago (3 children)

And you assume your apple-using friends will listen to you? They are really a part of the problem at least. Google would need to create an app they would want to install by themselves, and this is not exactly easy, if possible at all. Google users are mostly fine with having many apps for communication, apple users are mostly not.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

I am fully in the Apple ecosystem, including my phone, work laptop, personal laptop, and an Apple watch. I pretty much exclusively use telegram, and sometimes Discord, not iMessage— and that’s not a niche or unpopular opinion in my experience either. This is absolutely because Google can’t stick with one app or product long enough to gain any market share. Each time they have tried, it’s lasted barely a year or so before they killed it.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] flop_leash_973 11 points 11 months ago (2 children)

More like senators are trying to make another show trial of BS they really have no plans to do anything about, and probably shouldn't be getting in the middle of, to make it seem like they are being productive in some way.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Why would they need to look into Apple's conduct here? Investigate Beeper for CFAA violations since they cracked into Apple's internal APIs and ignored large chunks of their ToS in the process.

Of course Apple is going to shut down unauthorized access to their messaging system. They'd lose all customer trust instantly if they didn't.

[–] LordKitsuna 5 points 11 months ago

ToS have almost universally been shown to be unenforceable in court. I'm also not sure what the hell you mean by customers would lose trust. It's not as if they had access to information they shouldn't, all they did was reverse engineer the protocol. They still had to have an account and a login and they still only had access to the data that account should have. There's nothing to lose trust over the only thing beeper was doing was emulating being an iMessage client

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Reverse engineering for interoperability is legal, is it not? This is interoperability.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›