You can't hold public office and not know who fought who in WWII : canada

[+] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago

Pal, we had a guy who was an active participant in genocide put in front of Parliament and applauded. We can take a moment to consider why that was a bad idea.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago

Is it impossible for you to focus on more than one issue at the same time?

[+] [email protected] 18 points 9 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

[deleted]

[–] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

"Name every soldier who fought in WW2."

"The allies?"

"Everyone."

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

"Oh you're into military history? Name every soldier."

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Like, everyone's name?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

You just need to know who fought against the Russians in Ukrane during World War 2. Its not exactly a history degree. Even just assuming no one on the team had even a high-school level of history knowledge (already a bad sign), the fact that no one thought to actually look into the deeds they were praising him for is pathetic.

[–] antifa 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Not everyone who fought against russia in Ukraine was a Nazi, regardless of what russia tries to say

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Not ideology, but they did largely fight with the Nazi military. I'm aware of the partisan groups as well, but the average person won't be, and many of them are also pretty controversial as well. That said, my point wasn't whether or not Hunka is or isn't a Nazi ideologicaly. Its that telling the world a Waffen-SS soldier was a hero with no understanding of the situation at all is a terrible, stupid idea. If a government is honouring someone, they should, at the very least, know the details of what they're honouring them for, which they clearly didn't. If they did know they'd be honouring a Waffen-SS member, they would have avoided it for the bad press alone. Even assuming he joined purely to fight off the Soviets rather than any alligence to Nazism, and assuming he committed no war crimes, and they were okay risking the bad press, they should have known to check his background to confirm his innocence before presenting him as a hero in front of the world.

[+] [email protected] -6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Its that telling the world a Waffen-SS soldier was a hero with no understanding of the situation at all is a terrible, stupid idea.

It would have been terrible and stupid, perhaps, but Rota explicitly said he is recognized as a Ukrainian hero and a Canadian hero. There was no mention of him being recognized as a Waffen-SS hero.

If I said you were a Lemmy hero, that doesn't mean you are also being recognized as a "that time you got blackout drunk at the bar and made an ass of yourself" hero. There is no logical connection between them. The world is not one dimensional.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You're twisting my words. I'm not saying they described him as a Waffen-SS hero. I'm saying they praised him as a hero, despite him being a Waffen-SS soldier (which, notably, is exactly the combat service they're praising him for, although again, not my point) without understanding the situation.

If they actually knew that the service they were thanking him for was as a Waffen-SS soldier, why the resignation and the panicked apologies. They clearly had no idea of who they were promoting as a hero or the context of his service. If they had, they would have mentioned it to get ahead of media attention, prepared statements to defend themselves, or even just picked someone who would have attracted less bad press. If our government officials don't know fairly basic history (esspecially at a time when it ties in to current politics) and can't even be bothered to understand what they're promoting as heroism, it doesn't bode well foe their ability to decide on policy that will affect millions of people.

[+] [email protected] -6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I’m saying they praised him as a hero, despite him being a Waffen-SS soldier

These are not connected thoughts. Someone who saved a cat stuck in a tree, who is also a murderer, is still a cat-saving hero. The murderous act does not invalidate the cat heroism.

which, notably, is exactly the combat service they’re praising him for, although again, not my point

There is an issue to be found in the speech because of this fact, but not related to the assertion that he is a hero. The heroism call had specific direction and it was not directed at his membership in the Waffen-SS. But since this is not your point anyway...

it doesn’t bode well foe their ability to decide on policy that will affect millions of people.

Under the Canadian democratic system, the representatives' job is to represent the people, not to make decisions for the people. This is like saying that a janitor failing to recognize a feature of the human anatomy does not bode well for his ability to perform open heart surgery. It truly doesn't bode well, but it would be quite silly to have that boding expectation in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

These are not connected thoughts. Someone who saved a cat stuck in a tree, who is also a murderer, is still a cat-saving hero. The murderous act does not invalidate the cat heroism.

No, but if the mayor planned to honour him in a speech on national television, it would be common sense to include something to the point of, "Despite coming from a rocky beginnings, he has made great strides and today, is a hero." in order to specifically recognize the act of valor and not anything else. Or, even more basic, pick someone who you know isn't a murder who achived something similar to honour. These aren't exactly complex ideas. But again we didn't even get that far, its common sense to do the research to even check if the person has a criminal background or something similar that would reflect badly on you to ignore (nonetheless praise). They couldn't even do that much. Even if you think it shouldn't reflect badly on them, it very obviously will, and it doesn't take a expect to know that praising a Waffen-SS member as a hero does not look good. Again, if they thought that was okay to praise him, why all the apologies and the resignation.

The representatives' job is to represent the people, not to make decisions for the people.

Yes, this is why they just sit there after we vote for them. They have no impact or imput on national policy or law whatsoever and should not be expected to have any knowledge on such matters. Its not like they're representing us in a goverment or anything.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

it would be common sense to include something to the point of, “Despite coming from a rocky beginnings, he has made great strides and today, is a hero.”

Common sense recognizes that they are completely unrelated. Such notice serves no purpose. If you have an allotted time slot and are struggling to fill it with cat-saving related material, I guess you can reach deep to pad it with such fluff, but it's completely and utterly meaningless. You could just as relevantly talk about that one time he went to visit his grandma if you really need fluff.

Again, if they thought that was okay to praise him, why all the apologies and the resignation.

Because emotions broke loose. As you pointed out earlier it was done in a panic. You also indicate that it was born of a mistake, which further proves that it was irrationally driven as common sense says that mistakes are guaranteed to happen when humans are involved, and thus are no big deal.

If we accept that a mistake happened and that mistake justified a larger discussion in a rational and logical manner, what was the rush? Common sense says that a rational discussion is just as good a month later as it is immediately. Common sense would have allowed time to schedule a rational discussion and would have taken care to do it right.

But there was no common sense as the crazies who can't think straight grabbed hold and were frothing at the mouth for 'resolution' immediately. Think about it from the other side and what they are dealing with. The crazies aren't something you want to mess with. They are known to do stupid things, even going as far as violence. Of course you're going to be in a panic to do something, anything, to ensure it doesn't escalate.

Common sense says that a rational discussion is a better tool, but common sense went out the window as soon as someone heard the word "Nazi". It's total batshit crazy, but that's Canada for you. As a population, we're not very well educated.

Yes, this is why they just sit there after we vote for them.

There is a need to have someone carry the 'town hall' results from back home to merge with the results from every other riding. There is a job there – it's just not one that makes decisions. The decisions are already made by the time they arrive in Ottawa.

If you think your representative is a mind reader and leave them to guess what decisions you want made, then they may have no choice but to make them for you. Likewise, if all you have is a janitor and a heart attack, the janitor may have no choice but to try open heart surgery in a last-ditched effort to save your life. But neither of these are expected to bode well. It is not the job they signed up for.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You're still ignoring my actual point. Either Im way more qualified to be a politician than I think or this should be a obvious answer. Do you think its a good idea for a politician to praise a former Waffen-SS member as a hero - do you think it will go over will with his colleges and voters? Surely its pretty obvious that no one will approve of it. Surely even a elementary school can understand that being even remotely accociated with the Nazi label won't make people like you.

Also, what fantasy land do you live in where representitives regularly actually make decisions based on what their voters want rather than what they, their party, or their donors want. Just look at everything from electoral reform, to censorship, to climate change.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Im way more qualified to be a politician than I think

What would make you think you are not qualified? It's just a "message boy" position. It is intended to free people doing important things from having to travel to Ottawa, as would be necessary under a direct democracy, instead allowing democracy to happen locally where it is convenient for important people, with only collation of the local democratic action needing to happen in Ottawa.

There is good reason why they are literally called servants. It is a bottom of the barrel job. If you are qualified to do anything else in life, it would be a waste and a drain on society to become the message boy, but someone does have to do it. If you think that's you, go nuts! You'll do just fine.

Do you think its a good idea for a politician to praise a former Waffen-SS member as a hero

To answer that question would require considering the motives of people, and that's a complete fools errand. It is impossible to know what they are thinking, and even if you somehow magically figure it out, what are you going to gain from it? It doesn't matter.

do you think it will go over will with his colleges and voters?

No. Clearly not. As we discussed earlier, the population lacks common sense. But as the previous discussion was about common sense, a hypothetical world where common sense was present would see no reason for it to not go over well. There is no logical reason for anything that transpired from what you claim was nothing more than a mistake.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Just mostly. The not Nazis in Ukraine were busy fighting against the genocidal force intent on eliminating them, aka the Nazis.

[–] antifa -3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

That is completely untrue. The communists were more intent on commiting genocide against Ukrainians than the Nazis were.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

The Nazi's plan to eliminate Slavs, including Ukrainians, and repopulate their territory with German settlers is well established. They partially carried out the plan by murdering millions of Slavs, millions of those being specifically Ukrainians. Their ultimate goal was to totally eliminate us. Are you entirely misinformed or lying and carrying water for nazis intentionally?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I don't remember the particulars of what happened on the Eastern Front being taught in my high school history classes. The Canadian military was concentrated on the Western Front, so what little detail was covered was concentrated there as well.

Also, when I was in high school, the Ukraine was not an independent nation, but part of the USSR—I don't think our classes even mentioned it had ever been separate. Actually, I'm not sure it was even once mentioned by name. This would be the case for the majority of the MPs as well, as I expect more of them than not were born before 1980.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The "in Ukraine" part was mostly for history nerds and those who'd want to play semantics. My point was that no one had the thought, "Hmmm. He fought against Russia, one of the Allies. That seems suspect." I wouldn't be shocked if a couple people missed it, but surely you'd have more than a couple people invlovled in planning this, and these are people for whom history is more relevant than most. Besides that, even if no one knew that Ukraine involved in the fight between Nazi Germany and the USSR, you'd hope there'd be someone to vet him who would at least find that out.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The fact that Rota's entire team, who should have done the vetting, appear to have been asleep at the wheel, looks either negligent or malicious on someone's part, yes. Doesn't mean that the other MPs should automatically have known. The fact that Russia was one of the Allies didn't get mentioned a hell of a lot during the Cold War years either, when they were The Enemy. Maybe they collectively should all have gone in for a refresher on eastern European history after the current war started, but I can understand why they might have had other priorities.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, I can understand those listening to the speech not immediately picking up the connection, considering there was only one chance (rather than the vetting process) and people probably weren't paying much attention in the first place. I'd have hoped more would have, but its not that suprising. Its just the complete incompetence involved in those who vetted Hunka and who researched, wrote, and editted the speech that shockes me.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago

Yeah this is it for me. I'm not a liberal, but it's very reasonable of every MP to think:

the speaker wouldn't invite a Nazi to be celebrated in the HoC, this guy must have been in the underground or something

Or honestly if Rota had said something like:

In WW2 Hunka was indoctrinated by Nazi propaganda, and had his patriotism twisted to support the Nazi regime against the Soviets. He fought in the Nazi SS Galician division against the USSR, seeking an independent Ukraine. He is horrified by the atrocities and genocide the SS and others committed in service of Nazism. He renounced his oath to Hitler at the first opportunity, but never gave up his support for an independent Ukraine. He is proud of Ukrainians like Zelensky fighting for a Ukraine that embraces democracy and freedom.

I think it would have been okay.

[–] someguy3 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't believe I learnt about Finland fighting against the USSR in WW2.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Its stuff like that, that are why I specified, "In Ukraine." I know theres more actual compelxity on the Eastern Front, but I don't really expect people to know that much. I'm only really expecting people to know "Nazis vs Soviets on the Eastern Front" since thats about the depth of coverage in school. Even that should be enough raise some red flags somewhere in the vetting process and/or the speech writting.

[–] Ya_Boy_Skinny_Penis 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

"Soviets allied with Nazis on the Eastern Front" was very much a real thing.

And the parts that the USSR invaded are part of modern day Ukraine. Ukrainians literally fought a Soviet/Nazi invasion in WWII.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

I mean, if they have that much knowledge of WW2, then they should understand the potential of Hunka being involved with the Nazis, and/or with the war crimes on the Eastern Front. My point is that you don't even need to get to that level of depth or firmiliarity to see potential issues that could arise. Clearly they didn't consider even the basic red flags that could come with an understanding of the depth, "Soviets vs Nazis on the Eastern Front." No one involved in preparing the speech and inviting Hunka even thought to check which division he served in, nonetheless ensure he wasn't a war criminal.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

we are supposed to believe that not one of them thought it might be prudent to remain in their seat and refuse to applaud a man who was self-evidently fighting in the Nazi cause?

We are supposed to believe that anyone cared? The people in attendance were almost certainly thinking about what they planned to have for dinner, or wondering about what their kids were doing, or pondering what they might do on the weekend – not listening to what some random nobody who means nothing did a lifetime ago. Not even the strongest-willed person alive would make it through that snooze fest without having their mind wander off.

[–] Lando_ 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This article kind of sucks.

Here is an article that paints a more nuanced picture and doesn't call every MP an idiot.

Not blaming you for posting, OP. Just wanted to offer a take with more depth than "Nazis bad" Everyone knows Nazis are bad. This situation is more complex than that.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (3 children)

I don't really think it is. That article you linked is holocaust revisionism and I think you should really rethink how much grey area you think there is in this situation.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

I think Lando read the same article I read from the actual historian, but it's hard to find it now.

[–] Lando_ 1 points 9 months ago

I tried to link the article in my comment. I believe it was also linked on Canada earlier today.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 9 months ago

I'm aware of the Politico article, I read it earlier. It's frankly gross.

[–] Lando_ 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I'm not arguing that the Holocaust didn't happen.

I just linked an article stating that this singular Ukranian man fought on a unit that was found to have committed no war crimes.

Apparently I'm having trouble with links. Lol.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

He fought for Nazi Germany who murdered 11 million Slavs, 4 million of those being Ukrainians who he supposedly was fighting for. Hunka is a betrayer. A willing participant in genocide.

[–] Lando_ 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I swear to you that I believe the Holocaust happened.

I'm trying to say that one man, who was 18 years old, in 1943, living in Ukraine (which was part of the Soviet Union at the time), might have had limited options in what he did for a living.

And if he didn't want to his people to be a part of the Soviet Union then he could have ended up on a unit that was working against the Soviet Union. I'm not saying that was right or wrong. I'm just saying it's more complicated than "this guy was a Nazi" and the whole government of Canada is full of idiots.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

As opposed to siding with the other side that had just also killed roughly 4 million Ukranians before the war started, and also committed many atrocities against the Ukranian people (which contiued to happen as the Soviets retook Ukraine). I'm not saying that joining the Waffen-SS to fight the Soviets is just (and I'm also making the assumption that no other war crimes were committed, as so far, there is no evidence Hunka was involved in any war crimes) but living in a time where he can't exactly Google the death counts the Nazis and Soviets, and having experienced the Soviet rigime's brutality, its not clear cut. Given the information currently available, its entirely possible a lot of his town or family were killed in the Holodomor and he joined believing fewer would be killed under Nazi rule. Given the death counts under Stalin's rigime, its not a strange thought, esspecially after living through it, and not yet spending much time under Nazi rule. It doesn't even have to be that he thought the Nazis were less dangerous to be a reasonable choice. For example, this was already late in the war, so if he felt confident that the Allies would win, he could have justified fighting hoping that neither the Soviets nor the Nazis would end the war in control of Ukraine. I'm not saying any of these is the case, but until we have some evidence that it isn't one of these, its far more grey.

To be clear, I don't think working with the Nazi army is a good thing, the Nazi rigime was obviously worse, but given the information he would have had access to at the time and the still-unclear background, theres no evidence he agreed with any of the Nazi beleifs or actions (other than fighting the Soviets). Until we find something more substantial, its not clear if he was/is the Nazi (ideologically) he is currently being portrayed as, or just someone who feared continued Soviet genocide of his people. We should not assume he is guilty while there is still room for uncertainty. On the other hand, if more substantial information about his motive comes out, or evidence that he was involved in any of the Division's war crime's against the Polish people, than I have no issue with leaving him to rot in prison for the rest of his life, but we should be sure that he was involved in the Nazi attrocities rather than just trying to protect his country from Soviet atrocities.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Fighting on the Axis side wasn’t bad; USSR committed genocide, we had interment camps, etc

The engagement in war crimes and in genocide is bad

This person may have engaged in them and that is bad, the same as celebrating a Vietnam vet isn’t bad but celebrating a Vietnam Vet that raped his way through a village is bad

The attempts to make it black and white are a disservice and shows we’ve forgotten the lessons of WW2 where we punished the Nazis but not the Wehrmarcht

And your further comment down seems that you aren’t able to understand this. There isn’t a good side and bad side; there are good people and bad people. The side they are on is largely based on their birth; considering the USSR’s genocide was against Ukrainians they would be more likely to not take that side

[+] n3m37h 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

[removed by mod]

Canada

Communities

Rules