this post was submitted on 29 Sep 2023
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Authors using a new tool to search a list of 183,000 books used to train AI are furious to find their works on the list.

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[–] [email protected] 94 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

Any AI model that uses publically available information for training should be open source by law.

This business where corporations (that includes authors, who are published by huge corporations) fight over who "owns" ideas is assinine. When it comes down to it, this is a fight about money being wrapped in an argument about "ideas."

AI models were developed with the collective knowledge and wisdom of society. They're like libraries and should be public like libraries. OpenAI, Google, all those fucks should be forced to open source their models, end of story.

[–] dangblingus 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Trick is educating the octogenarians in the senate to understand any of what you just wrote.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Yup! My ideas about what should happen are so far removed from what will actually happen they could be Planet X.

But that doesn't make me wrong, dammit!

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd say they should have to follow the most-restrictive license of all of their training data, and that existing CC/FOSS licenses don't count because they were designed for use in a pre-LLM world.

It seems like a pretty reasonable request. But people like free stuff, and when they think about who will get screwed by this they like to imagine that they're sticking it to the biggest publishers of mass media.

But IRL, those publishers are giddy with the idea that instead of scouting artists and bullying them into signing over their IP, they can just summon IP on demand.

The people who will suffer are the independents who refused to sign over their IP. They never got their payday, and now they never will either.

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Here's an idea, legally force companies like OpenAI to rely on opt-in data, rather then build their entire company on stealing massive amounts of data. That includes requiring to retrain from scratch. Sam Altman was crying for regulations for scary AI, right?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Would search engines only be allowed to show search results for sources that had opted in? They "train" their search engine on public data too, after all.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (14 children)

They aren't reselling their information, they're linking you to the source which then the website decides what to do with your traffic. Which they usually want your traffic, that's the point of a public site.

That's like trying to say it's bad to point to where a book store is so someone can buy from it. Whereas the LLM is stealing from that bookstore and selling it to you in a back alley.

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[–] 0ddysseus 50 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is no different than every other capitalist enterprise. The whole system works on taking a public resource, claiming private ownership of it, and then selling it back to the public for profit.

First it was farmland, then coal and minerals, oil, seafood, and now ideas. Its how the system works and is the whole reason people have been trying to stop it for the past 150 years.

The people making the laws are there because they and/or their parents and/or grandparents did the exact same thing. As despicable and corrupt as it is you won't change it by complaining and no-one is going to make a law to stop it.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

God damned right. Every "new" thing tends to be stolen. In more event history, its stolen from other capital, or from innovation with a free license, rather than artwork. Publishers might actually be able to make a problem out of this.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I certainly hope that none of these authors have ever read a book before or have been inspired by something written by another author.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That would be a much better comparison if it was artificial intelligence, but these are just reinforcement learning models. They do not get inspired.

[–] Hackerman_uwu 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

More to the point: they replicate patterns of words.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

just reinforcement learning models

...like the naturally occuring neural networks are.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago (7 children)

The brain does not work the way you think… (I work in the field, bio-informatics). What you call “neural networks” come from an early misunderstanding of how the brain stores information. It’s a LOT more complicated and frankly, barely understood.

[–] canihasaccount 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, accurately simulating a single pyramidal neuron requires an eight-layer deep neural network:

https://www.cell.com/neuron/pdf/S0896-6273(21)00501-8.pdf

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Tell you what, you get a landmark legal decision classifying LLM as people and then we'll talk.

Until then it's software being fed content in a way not permitted by its license i.e. the makers of that software committing copyright infringement.

[–] Touching_Grass 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

What exactly was not permitted by the license? Reading?

[–] sab 13 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Using it to (create a tool to) create derivatives of the work on a massive scale.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

An AI model is not a derivative work. It does not contain the copyrighted expression, just information about the copyrighted expression.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Wikipedia: In copyright law, a derivative work is an expressive creation that includes major copyrightable elements of a first, previously created original work.

I think you may be off a bit on what a derivative work is. I don't see LLMs spouting out major copyrightable elements of books. They can give a summary sure, but Cliff Notes would like to have a word if you think that's copyright infringement.

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[–] newthrowaway20 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)

That's an interesting take, I didn't know software could be inspired by other people's works. And here I thought software just did exactly as it's instructed to do. These are language models. They were given data to train those models. Did they pay for the data that they used to train for it, or did they scrub the internet and steal all these books along with everything everyone else has said?

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[–] elbarto777 20 points 1 year ago (18 children)

These are machines, though, not human beings.

I guess I'd have to be an author to find out how I'd feel about it, to be fair.

[–] Touching_Grass 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Machines that aren't reproducing or distributing works

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Are you saying the writers of these programs have read all these books, and were inspired by them so much they wrote millions of books? And all this software is doing is outputting the result of someone being inspired by other books?

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[–] kromem 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Generally they probably bought the books they read though.

If George RR Martin torrented Tolkien, wouldn't he be infringing on the copyright no matter how he subsequently incorporated it into future output?

I completely agree that the training as infringement argument is ludicrous.

But OpenAI exposed themselves to IP infringement by sailing the high seas in how they obtained the works in the first place.

I hate that the world we live in is one where so much data is gated behind paywalls, but the law is what it is, and if the government was going to come down hard on Aaron Swartz for trying to bypass paywalls for massive amounts of written text, it's not exactly fair if there's a double standard for OpenAI doing the same thing in an even more closed fashion.

But yes, the degree of entitled focus on the premise of training an AI as equivalent of infringing is weird as heck to see from authors drawing quite clearly from earlier works in their own output.

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[–] pavnilschanda 25 points 1 year ago (8 children)

I hope they can at least get compensated.

[–] Fredselfish 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So where can I check to see if my book was used? I published a book.

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[–] Smoogs 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ok so it’s been stealing art now it’s coming for authors. At what point do we hold the coalition who started this shit culpable for numerous accounts of plagiarism?

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Curious if the AI company actually bought those books or if they just came across them by pirating.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

There's an idea by Barath Raghavan about an AI dividend that companies pay each netizen a share for the data they use to train these models.

I am into this idea if companies can't even do a simple opt-in mechanism.

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