this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2025

223 points (97.0% liked)

Technology

61247 readers

6719 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.

Our Rules

Follow the lemmy.world rules.
Only tech related content.
Be excellent to each other!
Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
Politics threads may be removed.
No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.

Approved Bots

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

223

China urges citizens to trade in 'old lithium e-bikes' for newer lead acid electric bikes (electrek.co)

submitted 1 day ago by [email protected] to c/technology

41 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 41 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

The safety thing is 100% true but only part of the picture.

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

China has many, many more electric vehicles than any other country and a ton of electricity production to run them. At some point it’s gonna become important to save the lithium batteries for the stuff that needs that high density power.

Maybe these better chemistries that will replace lithium are just around the corner. I certainly don’t count unhatched chickens.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I don't think you realize just how fast lead acid batteries deteriorate when using their smaller charge capacities. In cars and many electronics they are used because they can be shamelessly charged to 100%, and they are supposed to maintain 100% or close to it. They require constant monitoring to be stored properly in a way that lasts. Using them up below 50% will decrease their lifespan significantly. Lithium batteries are quite different, they shouldn't be charged to 100% but in turn they can use a greater amount of their charge while holding more of it without significant deterioration. They have significantly longer lifespans when used properly. Before we had gasoline cars we had electric cars that used lead acid batteries, there's a reason they stopped being used.

What China wants to do is eliminate the older lithium ebikes because they were built with barely any safety regulation. To do this, they need to offer a cheaper option to their citizens, and the only way they can essentially do this without the original problem persisting is using lead acid batteries, because even a cheap lead acid battery with a cheap charger isn't going to fail spectacularly like the lithium ones. LiFePO4 are far safer than lithium while still having higher energy densities, but you won't see those get promoted because they would be costlier.

[–] Acters 1 points 2 hours ago

I know right, they are cheaping out because why bother subsidizing new bikes when trading in an old bike? Just sell a cheap shittier e bike. If only the citizens were able to pay the government some cash to help make their community more safe and better than before. /s

[–] [email protected] 38 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

newer

lead acid

Uh, wtf?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 hours ago

Yeah, they should have just gone to the frontier of technology with carbon-air cells. It's weird, right? I thought China was a first mover in tech.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

The headline means newly manufactured e-bikes with lead acid batteries.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 hours ago (2 children)

That doesn't explain why the new bikes have older technology than the bikes they're urging people to trade in.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago

Because new items can still use old technologies if it makes more sense to do so?

A 2025 vehicle with a manual radio sold for $30,000 might still sell better than a 2020 vehicle with a touchscreen dash for $25,000

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

It's in the article:

Over the last decade or so, China has seen a shift from older AGM batteries, which are heavy and bulky, toward lighter and longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries.

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation. The government instituted new safety standards for lithium-ion batteries in e-bikes last year, but there’s also been a major pushback toward AGM batteries for the domestic market.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

Do you know that LiFePO4 cells are the same price (in Europe), longer-lasting, lighter and safer than traction lead-acid ones? They pretty much have no disadvantages to lead-acid, and the need of a BMS (and heater if needing to charge below freezing or run below -4 °F/-20 °C) is no problem since those are a fraction of the cells' price. The only reason I see behind this move would be acute lithium shortage in China.

[–] chonglibloodsport 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

From what I can tell, lead acid batteries in Europe have taxes applied to them to pay for recycling. Other places don’t have these taxes so lead acid batteries are very cheap there.

Having said that, I watched a video of a guy in Bangladesh recycling lead acid batteries by hand just using simple tools and a pot to melt the lead over a wood fire and a simple mold to pour the lead plates.

It’s a very basic, easy thing to do. It’s just labour intensive so it ends up very expensive if you have to pay Europeans to do it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago

Lead acid is LITERALLY the oldest known rechargeable battery type so I am not surprised you can make them with ancient tools if you're also OK with 19th century "safety standards".

[–] [email protected] 45 points 1 day ago (2 children)

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation.

Urging citizens to buy new and inferior instead of increasing safety standards?

I'm Swiss and it's common knowledge here that chinese imported transportation devices can be russian roulette to use.

[–] pycorax 6 points 8 hours ago

I'm Singaporean and we've had a ton of apartments burnt down because of these imported Chinese ebikes already.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Are AGM batteries really inferior? Sure, they're heavier, but they aren't vulnerable to autoignition and thermal runaway. They also contain less conflict minerals than other types of batteries.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

AGM are absolutely awful compared to even the absolute worst lithium batteries, and won't last long at all if regularly cycled below even 50% SoC. LFP chemistries are a bit worse for energy density compared to NCA/NCM chemistries, but they don't contain any nickel or cobalt, and won't autoignite in the same way other chemistries will. Absolutely ridiculous they're suggesting lead batteries over better lithium options.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

I thought AGM were considered "deep cycle", as in designed for their full capacity to be used between charges.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

There are some possibly inaccurate and definitely confusing statements in the reply you got, but the first part, that agm is a physical structure of the lead acid battery that can be tipped over without making a giant mess and that deep cycle is another function of design as opposed to a function of the lead acid chemistry is correct.

What’s left unsaid is that lead acid batteries which are damaged and not working right anymore have a much safer and lower tech recycling process than lithium ones do and that’s saying something because one of the parts is lead!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Thanks! The other reply obviously meant well but was a bit mansplainey !

My situation is, I've recently purchased a camper trailer. It's wired up but needs a battery. I haven't had time to "research" other than seeing what batteries people are selling second hand. It seemed to me that everyone was using AGM batteries for this purpose and while I knew that AGM referred to the physical structure of glass mesh I had assumed it was synonymous with deep cycle batteries.

Now I've read about it a bit more I realise that LiFePO4 batteries are superior but more costly.

I guess, the reason why I was seeing AGM batteries everywhere is because everyone's buys them because they're cheap and then realises they really needed LiFePO4 so they try to sell the AGM and upgrade.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

I’m a wet cell lead acid man myself.

There’s the monthly battery fluid level check to contend with but if you can make sure it doesn’t tip over too often or too long and you can bank on being able to get to civilization once every six or ten years then you’re in the low total cost of ownership ecosystem.

Of course, they’re not as good in the cold and if you screw up and let all the water leak out then you gotta fill it back up and hope it’s not too messed up.

Whatever you pick will be fine. Tbh if you’re not gonna have the trailer for longer than the life of the battery, pick the one that’s got more curb appeal or resale value!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

Fair enough.

It seems like on an e-bike Lithium would be the go due to it's higher energy density.

On a trailer you can house it in something appropriate and the size and weight requirements aren't as restrictive.

It seems like keeping the battery is a common practice when selling a trailer. That's why mine doesn't have one. A lot of people would never use one if they're always parked in someone's yard or in a powered site.

I doubt we will really need a battery at all over the next 6 months with the trips we have planned. Probably better to hold off until we have a few trips under our belt to determine exactly what appliances we're really going to need.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

AGM just means the acid is held inside a glass mat, like fibreglass structure so instead of liquid it's like a sponge. This gives it less maintenance and more shock absorption, can also be turned or tipped over without issue. It's still lead acid just not held in liquid form.

A lead acid based battery can be deep cycle or starter or both. Being deep cycle basically means the plates inside the are battery thicker, which allows it more tolerance for being depleted as well as generally more reserve.

A real easy way to understand it that I found (when explaining it to customers without a technical background.)

Imagine instead of electricity it's water. A deep cycle battery is simply a larger tank of water with a regular size pipe to get the water out. A starter battery is a regular size tank with a large pipe to get the water out.

So if you need to start a engine that needs a chunk of water(electricity) all at once to start it , a starter battery can provide it but doesn't have alot of reserve behind it so the pipe cant stay open very long.

The deep cycle can't provide the large rush of water at once(cca) but does have lots of reserve so the pipe runs longer.

Both suffer from reduced flow(voltage drop) as the tank empties. Imagine the pipe not able to be completely filled as the tank drained, you still get water but the rate is reduced as the pressure behind drops. Both suffer damage if left too empty or are drawn too low, a deep cycles design just gives it far more tolerance to that depleted state, allow it to be cycled more( charged from empty) more times before the battery fails.

Dual purpose batteries are basically large tank, large pipe.

It's worth noting that DC voltage only draws what it needs, you can hook up the largest battery bank to the smallest load with no issue as far as the size of the bank etc if everything is setup and function correctly.

Lithium suffers from none of these drawbacks. (As well as many more advantages) Gotta use the newer tech that is far safer though. Early Lithium and most cheap none reputable stuff is using the riskier tech with substandard QC.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 hours ago

Do we have enough mineral resources for all the batterie needs to be to fulfilled with lithium only?

I guess china needs lithium in other places more and cheap. Therefore made this initiative. Makes sense for china to protect their lithium stack. International trade in near future gonna be a mess.

[–] Noobnarski 1 points 17 hours ago

And even if you only cycle lead batteries above 50% SOC, they will still last a significantly shorter amount of time, especially compared to LiFePo4 batteries.

[–] [email protected] 80 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I thought they would have been pushing for sodium ion batteries instead. Lead acid batteries are a bad choice for anything that needs to be cycled frequently.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 day ago

They're a also bad choice for e-bikes because they're heavy as hell. I had an e-bike a while back that had two lead acid batteries, and they were about 15 lbs each. The added weight made it almost impossible to go uphill with the motor, so you'd have to pedal a much heavier bike up hills. Not a good experience at all.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 day ago

Last part of the article basically says sodium ion batteries are where they're going next.

[–] buzz86us 4 points 18 hours ago

Ehh they need to do sodium batteries

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean there are quite many fires in China started by those e-bikes but I thought it was because of bad quality.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 day ago (2 children)

There are chemistries that are less volatile But they're less energy dense as well.

The biggest problem I see on most of the Chinese stuff is a lack of safety in the battery packs. They're just mass-producing cells and shoving them together, It wouldn't be very expensive to put a small battery management system on every cell. Watch each cell for voltage and temperature. Have them shut down when they're out of safety margins

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

LiFePO4 is still superior to traction lead-acid in pretty much every way: energy density, safety, time and cycle life, internal resistance... Yes, they need a BMS but those are very cheap and lots of batteries have them built-in. In fact, I was unable to find 4-cell packs without a BMS inside so I could put two of them in series and balance the 8S cells with each other using an active BMS of my choice, and ended up ordering individual cells and screwing them together.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Also worth mentioning LiFePO4 is like half the weight of lead acid and it's far less susceptible to voltage sag under load. The only area I think LiFePO4 runs into challenges is the inability to charge below freezing. Lead acid is a real workhorse when it comes to the extremes.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The article also mentions sodium ion batteries as an alternative. Can’t wait to see how they perform in real life.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

IIRC there is already an e-scooter you can buy that has a sodium ion battery. From a chinese company (ofc) that I forget the name of. It touts fast charging and basically performs just fin down to -20C.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

This one maybe?

48 V and a capacity of 24 Ah

400 W power and a 25 km/h top speed.

They're from $450 to $590, so amazingly priced.

Fun fact: it would not be classified as a e-bike nor a moped in Estonia because it's less than 1000w and max speed is no more than 25 km/h, but an mini-moped, which doesn't need a license to drive, but you have to be older than 16 and need to wear at least a bicycle helmet.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 14 hours ago

Estonia

Bestonia

[–] [email protected] 3 points 21 hours ago

This is big news. Why isn’t everyone already talking about SIBs? Also, the 145 Wh/kg sits neatly between LFP and NMC. As long as the other properties are reasonable, it should stand a chance against NMC.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 21 hours ago

Less than half in my experience. I bought two 100ah 12v lifepos and they are under 30 lbs. 23lbs I believe. I have a lead acid deep cycle of the same power and it’s like 80-90.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

If you need to charge LiFePO4 batteries below freezing, you can add a heater to the pack. There are even some batteries available now with built in heaters that come on automatically below freezing.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago

From what i know the issue seems to be too lax safety margins in packaging, to increase density.

[–] buzz86us 2 points 19 hours ago

Damn I'd have atleast waited until sodium ion was built out