Counter offer: Blue states should join Canada.
this post was submitted on 03 Dec 2024
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Deal
That’s not a joke, it shouldn’t be written as “Trump jokes”.
That’s how he honestly feels and I for one am very concerned. This is my much edited down version of my initial comment, which was very vulgar.
Since this psychopath's previous administration I have advocated for Canada to pursue a nuclear weapons program. I was attacked for it. Does anyone else have any bright ideas on resisting this increasingly aggressive state? Preferably without decades of guerrilla warfare.
This is genuinely the only reasonable sovereignnty guarantee in the current geopolitical climate. We haven't had a nuclear deterrent since the 80s, time to reaquire it. That's just dreaming though, Canada simply lacks decisive leadership under any part, at least that's the evidence of the last 30 years or so.
Canada defending itself with nukes makes about as much sense as a lone citizen defending themself from the state with firearms. And if it comes down to me not getting my way vs innocent people getting nuked, I'd rather die.
How does a nuclear weapons programme help Canada's sovereignty? In what situation would it be advantageous to us to actually launch a nuclear attack against our literal neighbour? Even if it wasn't intercepted, and we somehow managed to land it on a high-value target like DC, the US would simply liquify every Canadian city from East to West in a matter of hours. And even if they somehow showed restraint in the face of a nuclear attack and didn't counter with their own massive arsenal, the fallout alone would kill or injure millions of Canadians and destroy our economy for a generation... assuming our initial volley didn't trigger automated MAD policies around the world and end the world in a nuclear winter.
It's an objectively terrible idea.
Now, if you really are concerned about invasion from our crazy neighbours (a reasonable position to take), then a more effective approach would be a mandatory service model, where everyone is trained in small weapons fire and counter insurgency. If the Americans choose to invade, they should know going in that they'll pay dearly for every hectare.
The entire point of a nuclear deterrent is that it's incredibly disadvantageous for everyone involved to use it. We would presumably not be dumb enough to develop one missile and call it a day. Your proposal would put us in the position of Ukraine against Russia, only against a more well funded military and without the weapons injections coming from the USA. The best we could hope for is decades of guerrilla resistance which, I don't know about you, but I would rather have another alternative.
So the argument is that there's no winning, so no one will play. I can see the appeal in the idea, but doubt its viability. Should the US ever decide to take Canada in whole or in part, it would be through salami tactics (Wikipedia link you want something more serious) rather than a full scale invasion. The Americans could annex Toronto tomorrow and the rest of Canada would be scared and angry for sure, but would we demand that Ottawa launch our nuclear arsenal promising our annihilation? What if the Americans took Ottawa, and Montreal a few weeks later? How 'bout then? Would Alberta even care?
The MAD doctrine was developed as a deterrent to nuclear attacks, not conventional ones. Sure, if the US were to attempt a first strike nuclear volley, having nukes on-hand might deter them from targetting us, but assuming that having nukes would protect us from conventional invasion doesn't make any sense to me.
Consider your reference to Ukraine. If Ukraine had nuclear weapons, what makes you think that Russia wouldn't have annexed Donetsk anyway and claimed "liberation"? They had all manner of cover: local Russian-speaking population, strong separatist factions. They could invade claiming that they're simply "protecting Russian interests/citizens" etc. Would the world expect Ukraine to launch their nukes then? What would be the inevitable outcome of such a choice to both parties? How many Ukranians would be left a few days later?
So now you have a poorly trained local military (all your money has gone to developing and maintaining a nuclear arsenal you don't expect to use after all) and the Russians have taken an entire region and are angling for Kharkiv next. Kiev calls for help from the world community but as their rhetoric is also coloured with threats of nuclear retribution, the world isn't keen on helping either side. Maybe the Russians take Kharkiv because they're feeling audacious and stop there, or maybe they try and Kiev launches a nuke on Moscow and everyone dies. There's no scenario here where nuclear weapons make things better.
Would the world expect Ukraine to launch their nukes then?
YES. That would be the entire point. Can you explain why no nuclear armed state has directly confronted another since, well, ever? Why the US has been unwilling to intervene in Ukraine as anything other than a proxy war? Why Iran developing a nuclear arsenal is so concerning to the US? Did Israel develop a nuclear weapons capacity because they were legitimately concerned with being nuked themselves, or as a deterrent to conventional invasion? You are asking a lot of rhetorical questions but the actual history of nuclear weapons suggests that they would deter an invasion where giving small arms to citizens would not.
Surely if North Korea can develop such a program and maintain armed forces, Canada can do so.
If to protect ourselves from our enemies we have to become like them, I prefer to give up on Canada and go somewhere else.
I would suggest that making themselves difficult to invade isn't the part of them I find distasteful. If we're ever in a position to annex them and do, I'll agree with you.
"making oneself difficult to invade" is quite an understatement of pursuing nuclear weapons but point taken
As I watch the US become more like Russia and Trump more like Putin, I feel like Canada might become more like Ukraine. 💀
Trump suggested that Trudeau would be the governor. Even better, it would be separated in 2, the conservatives part (I guess alberta) and the liberals part (I guess mostly Québec).
Maybe West Canada and East Canada, or Upper Canada and Lower Canada? 51st and 52nd state? Trump is fucking crazy
Fix the headline
OK stupid Trump comments aside, I do think it's a diplomatic blunder for Trudeau to say that the tariff would kill the Canadian economy. Even if it would, better not to admit it, because pleading with a demon is guaranteed loss while at least a bluff could get some result. So I just hope this is hearsay and not really how things went down during those talks.
Please god no.
That might not even be in my top 10 choices to be annexed by.
Listen, Americans. I like most of y'all. But if Trump ever tries to make that happen, I'm the first person picking up a gun and heading to the front lines. Don't care if you've been drafted or volunteered, I will shoot your ass.
"Trump just finished the first episode of Fallout on Prime, confuses it for a strategy" - better headline. Serously, if it weren't for the fact that this clown is president-elect, we would have collectively ignored him a long time ago.
But don't you dare call them fascists....
Fuck off Trump.
Hopefully the US Military would hold up their vows not to follow illegal orders should he try to do anything.
Lets not get pulled into America's descent into plutocracy. We need to be more like Denmark.
America's descent into plutocracy.
Us is an Oligarchy and always has been
It'll happen whether we want it to or not. We have fresh water they desperately need
Shhhh we need to keep our mythical taps that hide freshwater from Arizona secret!
I'm still saying it would be a funny power move to join Schengen.
Wait, wouldn’t this swing the next election assuming Canadians wouldn’t vote republicans as much on average compared to Americans?
Wait, they would probably have classes to gerrymander things until it doesn’t.
All of our federal party leaders are CIA stooges, and so this proposal would give Canadians representation over our rulership.
Surely 10 individual states is more appropriate.
We'd be in a much worse pension and healthcare position, and would be bailing out US federal debt. US debt levels are literally on the verge of collapsing the country. Not only is like minded US states joining Canada a far better alternative to fascism and prevents divisiveness symptom of collapse, the appropriate timing of such a merger is after the US defaults on its debt.