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121

Auto industry’s shift toward EVs is expected to go on despite Trump threat to kill tax credits (apnews.com)

submitted 2 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/politics

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I own an EV, I will never buy another ICE vehicle.

That being said, they don't make sense for everyone financially speaking, even if they come down in base price. They also don't make sense for certain use cases, like towing long distances.

In places with high electricity prices, the cost to charge an EV one can be the same as paying for gas. Where I live, electricity is super cheap. It costs me about 2 cents per kilometer to drive my EV (I pay a little under 10 cents per kwh) and a gas equivalent model for my EV would cost a little over 10 cents per kilometer with current gas prices.

If I had to pay the electricity rates in California, Connecticut, Hawaii, etc. around 0.30 USD per kwh, that would mean I would be paying about 10 cents to drive a kilometer, the exact same as the gas price.

Blanket country wide adoption is not optimal in my opinion. Push EVs into the places that benefit from them most, congested commuting in cities with low electricity prices where they're cheaper, more efficient (EVs are better in traffic), produce less emissions near where people live, etc.

Use that demand to give the industry time to solve the upfront pricing issues to get them on par with ICE vehicles. Once they come down to the price of a new ICE vehicle, then mandate those people in higher electricity areas because it won't cost them more to do so.

[–] SpaceNoodle 23 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The pricing problem isn't inherent; manufacturers could make cheaper EVs, but are making most of them as premium models instead because they think they can (and likely do) make more money that way - same reason that almost nobody is building affordable housing, but rather luxury apartments.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It's just going to take a bit of time. They're focusing on luxury right now because it's the highest profit per unit, and you always want to exploit the highest profits as a corporation. As they scale up, they will overflow the luxury market, which is why were starting to see cheaper options start becoming available. It's a profit maximization strategy that has been around for a very long time for the introduction of new goods.

The housing thing is a different problem, because that's dealing with a finite supply of land in places people want to live and the fact that people want things to stay the same "in their neihbourhood"

[–] SpaceNoodle 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The economics are similar, but the solutions do differ. In the case of housing, we can build up in desirable areas while using the NIMBYs as biofuel.

[–] meco03211 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You can make all the biofuel you want so long as it's not made or burned in my backyard. The fucks a NIMBY?

[–] SpaceNoodle 5 points 2 weeks ago

You had me in the second half

[–] UsernameHere 5 points 2 weeks ago

As a former mechanic, I will never buy another gas vehicle. The cost of ownership from maintenance and repairs is several times more than an EV.

By replacing the gas drivetrain with a single electric motor you eliminate oil changes, transmission fluid and filter changes, air filters, spark plugs, spark plug wires, ignition coils, fuel filters, emission components like catalytic converters, the whole exhaust system, timing belts, oil pan leaks, front cover leaks, valve cover gasket leaks, differential fluid changes, fuel cost and on and on and on there’s so much more that will break.

I pay $15 a month in electricity when I used to pay $80-100 in gas for my Honda civic.

The difference in cost of ownership and reliability is way better with an EV.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

This is not surprising.

I'm still personally in a position where I could not own an EV. A hybrid, sure. But an EV, I cannot charge because I'm in an apartment. EV ownership is tied to home ownership in a way that I see few people discuss.

[–] Maggoty 8 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Once they get charging times down further it will be better. They're talking about 10 minute charges soon. The other thing we need to do though is get businesses and parking lot owners on board with charging stations. Just literally everywhere, especially long visit businesses like grocery stores and restaurants.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I’m all-in if they do a 10-minute charge.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

This exactly. The battery tech needs to be such that I can get the same energy density into my vehicle without having to change my habits around the technology.

Couple that with the fact that battery production is crazy dirty and bad for the environment anyway, I'm still not sure the EV is "it".

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah there is going to be a big problem when all these batteries are dead. I know they can recycle a lot of them but WILL they?

It feels like battery tech should be further along by now.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

What’s interesting is some places like grocery stores installed chargers, but then removed them because of all the EV owners taking up spots but not actually shopping at the stores.

[–] Maggoty 5 points 2 weeks ago

Which would be solved by requiring a purchase to avoid a parking charge. But I've seen the opposite where the plaza owner puts them in and is quite happy to have people walking around the plaza.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You just charge at a supercharger once in a while, or plug in to an L2 that are all over the place. You don't have a gas station in your appartment either.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Sure, but gas station availability is still significantly different than charger availability. And I don't have to wait an hour at the gas station. False equivalency.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You don't have to wait an hour. False premise.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Can I supply the entire range of the EV in 10 minutes?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

If you buy a new Hyundai, pretty close.

[+] [email protected] -6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

When it changes from pretty close to yes, then it won't be a false equivalency and I'd probably be in the market.

Edit: anyone disagreeing, can you explain how a technology that asks some population to change their behavior is expected to succeed? The EV asks its buyers to change their habits. It asks you to take the hit for the climate -- while simultaneously using technologies like modern batteries which are straight up bad for the climate.

Asking these things to be at parity with gas (as in, can I fill my electric car with power with the same speed as a gas car) is not a lofty goal. It is the baseline goal for any other technology. EV tech will remain outside of the norm until those issues are addressed. The intentions don't matter.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

First, you're moving goalposts. That already makes you seem like you're arguing in bad faith. You can't start with "an EV would have me wait for an hour just to be charged" and when people call you out on your bs be like "oh yeah, which EV charges in 10 minutes??" That's not what you said first. And when you're told that there are models that do charge in about 10 minutes, you're just like "well about is not enough". Just charge 10 minutes and leave the charger at 75 % then, if that 10-minute-mark is so important to you.

Second, charging embeds well into everyday tasks. Groceries? Car charges. Movies? Car charges. Restaurant? Car charges. Etc etc. Sure, 11 kW won't fully charge your car while you're shopping, but they don't have to. Just add some km while you're at it. I have friends and colleagues that don't own houses and still drive EVs and they say that there are more charging opportunities than they need, so they don't even always charge their car. If your commute requires you to charge more often, just charge before your first break and maybe ask your employer if there's a plug somewhere that you could use.

Only if none of that works and you're talking about a really long commute, you need to take detours to fast charge your car. Tbf, I never met anyone who had this issue, but yes, if you're that person, you'll have to adapt that convenient EV charging scheme I described above to... behave just like you did with your old combustion car. Yes, it'll take slightly longer to charge your car than to fill it. Just grab a coffee while you look for a supermarket that provides L2 charging so you can avoid it next time. I've certainly had my wait times at gas stations during rush hour or holidays, but that's seemingly not an issue.

Asking these things to be at parity with gas (as in, can I fill my electric car with power with the same speed as a gas car) is not a lofty goal. It is the baseline goal for any other technology.

That's just nonsense. EVs are so much better than ICEs in so many regards, worst case charge times and front up prices are the only things left for people to complain about. They're cheaper over their lifetime, their acceleration values (that car enthusiasts were comparing for decades to determine the awesomeness of a car) are beyond anything combustion engines can provide, they are quiet, etc etc. This weird idea that none of this counts if you have to spend half an hour to charge because you seemingly can't be arsed to charge it while you're doing something else is just ridiculous.

The EV asks its buyers to change their habits. It asks you to take the hit for the climate

You know what, so far it doesn't. So far, it's an offer you may or may not take. But eventually, yes, people will have to change their habits. As they did before. When the ozone layer started falling apart in the 70s, the world sat together and prohibited the usage of CFCs in the 80s, with some countries taking more or less time to turn this into their local laws. But yes, people then had to change their habits as CFC alternatives sometimes worked differently. Look at who complained the loudest then and maybe still complains about it today and ask yourself if you really want to be perceived like one of those folks.

using technologies like modern batteries which are straight up bad for the climate.

I'll just assume that you actually don't know what's worse for the climate. I mean, yes, we should reduce car dependency as a whole and use more bikes and public transport, but an EV is so much better for the climate than an ICE, it's not even close. Even if you charge it with electricity straight from a coal plant, it's just so much more efficient that eventually, it'll have been the better option for the planet, but assuming you just take the energy mix that's available where you live, it'll be fast to offset the worse climate footprint from battery production.

For a comparison that also mentions battery production: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tc-6GHdCmgI

[–] Quadhammer 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The more evs, the more the infrastructure will adapt

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

100% true, but it's still a chicken and egg problem

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

How often do you need to travel the entire range your car allows?

If you do need to drop everything and drive across country in an EV, you should be stopping at service stations to do short fast charge sessions anyway, as with modern fast chargers and battery tech you will typically go from something like 30% SoC to say 70% in only a few minutes. This saves a lot of time on longer trips.

If you are driving an EV by depleting the battery completely and then charging it back to 100% every time, you are doing it wrong.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

Many supermarkets and gyms have a charging station. You charge your car while you shop or exercise.

[–] Sanctus 14 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I want an electric Honda civic.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago

Me too! The Honda civics last forever!

[–] captainlezbian 4 points 2 weeks ago

I want an electric Honda fit. Give me my tiny uturn machine with even better fuel economy

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Drumpf can suck my EV's tailpipe

[–] djsp 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Careful there — he did kinda simulate blowing a microphone at a rally, so don't put it past him to abuse vehicles — even those that lack a tailpipe. Given his mental acuity, I bet he prefers a good dose of leaded exhaust, though.