this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2024

74 points (88.5% liked)

politics

19115 readers

3805 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

• Register To Vote

• Citizenship Resource Center

• Congressional Awards Program

• Federal Government Agencies

• Library of Congress Legislative Resources

• The White House

• U.S. House of Representatives

• U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

• News

• World News

• Business News

• Political Discussion

• Ask Politics

• Military News

• Global Politics

• Moderate Politics

• Progressive Politics

• UK Politics

• Canadian Politics

• Australian Politics

• New Zealand Politics

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

‘A change from the status quo’: the voters who backed Trump and AOC (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 3 days ago by return2ozma to c/politics

23 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The direct video: https://youtu.be/WoP9BJiItSI

top 23 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] PugJesus 49 points 3 days ago (2 children)

People are dumb as shit.

[–] hark 0 points 2 days ago

Indeed. Imagine the enormous stupidity it takes to think votes can be won by ignoring voters. Only a massive moron would think such a tactic would work. Good thing no one is that idiotic.

[+] TropicalDingdong -36 points 3 days ago (1 children)

or maybe you just have naive comprehension of how people work

[–] PugJesus 49 points 3 days ago (3 children)

“I feel you are both outsiders compared to the rest of DC, and less ‘establishment’,” said one. Another, “both of you push boundaries and force growth”. And: “It’s real simple … Trump and you care for the working class.”

“You are focused on the real issues people care about. Similar to Trump populism in some ways,” said a fourth. Lastly, a respondent said: “You signaled change. Trump signified change. I’ve said lately, Trump sounds more like you.”

Utterly brilliant. Complete geniuses with a firm grasp on current politics. I see why you count these as intellectual kin.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 days ago (2 children)

If Democrats can’t learn the lesson here they’re going to keep failing.

These are working class people who want their everyday cost of living needs addressed. They want change. No Trump isn’t going to help them but he says he will. “Trump will fix it!”

If Trump says mass deportations will fix their problems they’re going with that option.

Democrats need to actually do the work and fix their concerns the correct way, by taxing the shit out of or locking up billionaires for a start.

Democrats saying nothing will fundamentally change is not reaching these people, and just calling them dumb and discarding them isn’t a winning strategy.

[–] CharlesDarwin 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Democrats saying nothing will fundamentally change is not reaching these people, and just calling them dumb and discarding them isn’t a winning strategy.

How are Democrats supposed to reach these people? They seem to think Biden had a big button labeled "inflation" that he pushed. Everything the Democrats did do to try address things like this were played down and/or didn't even reach them since the corporate media was not passing that along. Other things were straight up knee-capped by the qons, like loan forgiveness.

How can the Democrats get any messaging out at all, when they are up against hate radio, Sinclair, Faux, bros in podcasting, bros running the algorithms, and so on?

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod 1 points 2 days ago

Maybe if the messaging was more radical, the actions were grand enough, and the spokespeople charismatic enough it won’t matter.

But none of those will happen so I guess we’re having fascism. Radical messaging “scares voters.” Big actions “aren’t feasible.” And the spokespeople have no rizz.

[–] BlitzoTheOisSilent 1 points 3 days ago (2 children)

and just calling them dumb and discarding them isn’t a winning strategy.

But that seems to be the SOP for Lemmy users, any criticism of the DNC, Harris, or Biden is met with "bUt TrUmP fAsCiSm," or some variation of you being a racist or fascist or whatever.

AOC sat down with her voters and asked them why they voted for her and Trump, and they gave her their honest answers.

And y'all (not you, the people you're responding to and the majority of Lemmy) immediately insult them, their intelligence, and their understanding of the world because y'all know better then them.

There were plenty of articles showing despite a good economy, Americans felt more strapped for cash and felt like they were doing worse than four years ago. That's their lived reality, and the DNC just kept doubling down on "economy good, soft landing," and then threw out the $15/hr minimum wage from a decade ago as if it would mean anything to most Americans (my state already has a minimum wage of just under $16/hr, and it's $8/hr short of what our own university said someone would need to afford a one bedroom apartment). So no working class person would have benefitted from that in my state, but the DNC and liberals act like we should be gobbling their nuts because they were so progressive for even briefly mentioning it.

I said right after the election (and was repeatedly attacked and downvoted for it) that the American people want change. And if it's not going to be progress, they'll roll the dice on regress. But something has to change, and for better or worse, Trump promises that while the DNC can barely be bothered to maintain the status quo.

[–] orclev 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

People are fucking stupid, but to the previous point that doesn't mean they can just be ignored. Their concerns are real and need to be addressed, they're just gullible morons for believing the first snake oil salesman that comes along promising to solve all their problems.

The DNC fucked up and has been fucking up consistently for decades now by ignoring lower and middle class Americans to focus solely on the upper class. Talks of the stock market doing well and the GDP being good means fuck all when that's all built on the backs of some of the most extreme income inequality and poverty in the history of the US. As the middle class eroded and wealth increasingly is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands it becomes critical to appeal not to the rich but to the poor who overwhelmingly outnumber them. Failure to do so has had the entirely predictable result that elections become impossible to win.

The GOP is fully aware of this, the big difference is they're more than happy to peddle comforting lies to an increasingly ignorant and stupid populace, due in no small part to Republicans decades of attacking and destroying public education. If the DNC or any other non-GOP party ever wants to hold power again they need to convince the poor to vote for them, one way or another.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

The problem here is that helping the working class hurts the people with lots of money to throw at attack ads. As you said, the people are gullible morons, they are not immune to propaganda.

If, hypothetically, the DNC were to fully shift to a pro-working class platform tomorrow, with the policies that implies, their capitalist donors would shift their donations to endless propaganda against them. Everything from half-truths and mischaracterizations to straight up lies.

Elections are not won by superior policy, they're won by superior popularity. Even if that popularity is based on lies and misinformation. The DNC has no incentive to adopt popular policies if adopting popular policies causes them to lose voters due to gullible morons being convinced by propaganda to vote against their interests.

Frankly I think holding out for the DNC to step up as leftist saviors is silly and ignorant of reality. The Democrats have been, and likely always will be, the less bad capitalist establishment party, which only gets support from the left as strategic time-buying votes (and rightly so, I will continue to vote blue-no-matter-who so long as the probable alternative is fascism). They're not likely to save us, and we can't pragmatically expect them to go from less bad to actually good.

[–] orclev 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

There needs to be some kind of solution or compromise though because as has been demonstrated this last election ignoring the working class is just handing their votes to the Republicans. Bernie Sanders demonstrated that it is possible to raise enough money from small donations to run a campaign. Yes the rich donors could out spend that by a significant margin, but I still believe someone with a good plan to address income inequality and out of control cost of living would do well enough to offset that.

The Democrats current policy of catering exclusively to rich donors is a losing strategy. If they ever want to win another election they're going to have to find a solution to that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

The frustrating factor is that people seem intent on focusing on DNC performance like they're a sports team, like the consequences are purely intellectual. At the end of the day, the seat is filled, and the people feel the consequences much more than DNC leadership ever will.

Yes, the DNC needs to reevaluate their strategy. But leftists on the Internet debating that strategy does not contribute to that goal. The right has a unified front, so long as the left insists on splintering, they'll always lose to the unified right.

There doesn't need to be a solution/compromise. The world is not a fair place with the perfect answer just waiting to be discovered. If there's a solution, it will require serious coordinated effort. Blue-no-matter-who is a strategy to buy time while that effort is coordinated. The left needs its Heritage Foundation, which by its very leftist nature is going to have to be funded and coordinated through a massive grassroots movement; we're not doing to attract any corporate donors.

So the solution is hard work, and a willingness to hold one's nose and support imperfect incremental improvement. Based on the evidence, we may be waiting quite a while.

[–] TropicalDingdong -3 points 2 days ago

I think your point is well made, and this thread is demonstrative of the entire point I was making to PugJesus.

PugJesus is the definition of incurious when it comes to understanding why their rhetorical approach failed.

[–] AbidanYre 14 points 3 days ago

Trump ... care[s] for the working class.

Fucking idiot.

Not you, pug.

[–] CharlesDarwin 7 points 2 days ago

I feel you are both outsiders compared to the rest of DC

Yeah, it sure is "outsidery" to be given half a billion dollars by your dad, have gold toilets, towers with your name slapped on them, and, oh, and having held the office before. Donvict is such an outsider, you guyyyyz

[–] thisphuckinguy 11 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Trump AND AOC? What an odd mix.

[–] dirthawker0 4 points 2 days ago

It's people who vote based on vibes rather than facts and consequences. They saw both of them as "outsiders" who "tell it like it is" and want change.

[–] ziggurat 3 points 2 days ago

Is it though? Assuming these people care fuck all about politics

[–] CharlesDarwin 5 points 2 days ago

Tone Police: "Don't make fun of the voters! The Democrats have to sell themselves to these people. Don't mock them lest we'll call you an elitist" People that voted for donvict: { proceed to say and do some of the dumbest shit imaginable }

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I have made similar comparisons before.

I want an exciting government as much as I want an exciting nuclear powerplant.

[–] orclev 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

To make an analogy out of your statement, in this scenario the nuclear powerplant is in the middle of melting down and one party ran on a platform of "Your right, that plant is a problem, but don't worry we'll fix it by removing all the control rods" while the other parties platform was "We think all the readings look fine, we're not going to change anything, the control rods are just fine where they are". Neither one is actually solving the problem, and one is actively making it worse while claiming the opposite. Everyone is rightfully concerned and wanted something done, and enough morons believed the lies to hand them the win.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I would have zero worry of living next to a boring, well run nuclear powerplant

[–] orclev 1 points 2 days ago

Absolutely, but that's not really comparable to the current situation. The US is far from well run and has a ton of problems that need fixing ASAP. While Trump will absolutely no question make things significantly worse, the Democrats message of "this is fine" did not in any way resonate with voters. It very much had the feel of "Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make".