'Solve' incorrect
More like 'we need your opinion on all this evidence we have'
this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2024
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The shocking thing is that before video and DNA evidence, pretty much all murders were never actually solved.
Witness testimony has been the cornerstone of most criminal cases in history, but witness testimony has been scientifically proven, repeatedly, to be entirely unreliable in all circumstances. Unless a killer confessed out of nowhere or was caught in the act, statistically they were innocent regardless of whatever twelve untrained yahoos were convinced of. The state, all states, have killed more innocent people with permission from the citizenry than any arbitrary group of civilian criminals in history, included ng all terror groups combined.
Gonna need a couple sources there, buddy. Sounds poetic but, like most poetry, a little bit hyperbolic.
No they're right eyewitness testimony has turned out to be shit. In your responses it looks like you go out of your way to miss the entire body of eyewitness experiments.
That wasn't the point I was addressing, but I appreciate you providing sources!
The unreliability of eyewitness statements isn't in question, I'll happily agree that it's total shit. But, while we've only recently quantified just how bad it is, the fact that it's unreliable is not new information (this is actually at the heart of "beyond reasonable doubt"). For the same reason, nobody's done the police procedural trope of a "Perp Walk" in years because of how demonstrably terrible it was. Criminal cases have required more than simply eyewitness accounts to establish a case for a very long time, and I wasn't arguing that. I was pointing out that at no point in history was a (relatively) fair court system so broken that more than half of people convicted were innocent. That's just ridiculous.
That was the point though. For hundreds of years we relied greatly on eyewitness testimony. And the state was incentivized to find people guilty for labor at home or in colonies. It's why half the bill of rights has to do with rights in criminal proceedings.
Hence:
"a (relatively) fair court system"
If the courts are just throwing everyone in prison anyways, it's sort of a moot point.
(The claim they're making is dumb and their understanding of statistics is worse. They've provided 0 evidence, or even coherent arguments. Listen, I like you, I see you on here all the time. Why are you defending this troll?)
I'm more trying to make sure people don't come by and get the wrong idea about eyewitness testimony or courts in history.
I don't think anyone's claiming that eyewitness testimony is reliable, or that historical courts weren't bad. But it's important not to exaggerate how bad institutions were in the past - it makes it all too easy to dismiss the failures of those same present-day institutions by comparing them to how they bad they used to be.
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-some person
I would love to do jury duty. It's one of your obligations as a US Citizen, treat it like that.
Then they should get paid a living wage.
Fifteen dollars is way beyond minimum wage from what I've read online. Also they apparently give them sandwiches and coffee and let's them sit. It's not like any US corporation would go that far. Unless they'd grab their organs later on.
It's $15 per day, not per hour.
That was a lot in 1922! And don't forget the sandwiches!
living wage
You don't get less pay for an easier day at any corporation either. We get paid for our time, regardless of how efficiently the employer chooses to spend that time.
Cool. I would love be to be able to pay rent and buy food, and jury duty is incompatible with that
Yeah. The right to trial by a jury of your peers is an amazing privilege that comes with the responsibility of willingness to serve on one. You don’t need to love your country to be proud to do it, just to love your fellow humans and to understand how much worse the alternatives are.
None of my peers can afford to miss work for $15 per day.
Fwiw, some states require employers to compensate employees at their regular wage while serving on a jury. Probably not relevant to you in particular, since I think only 10 do (plus DC), but it's worth checking out if you're unsure. Especially since some of the states that do have such provisions may not be the ones you might expect. Alabama and (parts of) Florida come to mind.
Furthermore, in states where such compensation is not compelled by law, employers are free to develop their own policies, which may include full compensation for jury duty or other mandatory court summons (e.g. being a witness). I'm sure that that is not common, per se, but it bears investigation if you find yourself in that situation. Either by contacting your HR department, or reading the policies yourself, depending on the competency or sliminess of your HR contacts.
Pray you never get selected to serve on a grand jury. They can require you to serve for a full week every month, for up to 4 years (in PA at least). It's absolutely insane. You do get paid a little more though, I think it's $40 a day.
You can always request an exemption for financial hardship. But that means that it's never really a jury of your actual peers.
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I’m always amazed Americans seem to hate it. I’d love it if we had that here in the Netherlands.
When someone commits a crime, they’re not only hurting a specific victim, they’re also hurting the community as a whole. It makes people feel less safe. The victim and offender are represented in the courtroom, so the broader community should be too. A jury feels like a nice way to give them representation.
I’d absolutely sit on a jury if they had it here.
You have to miss work and your employer is not required to pay you while you're gone. In a country where most people live paycheck to paycheck, this fact makes jury duty not very fun.
*In a country where your healthcare is tied to employment
While employers are not required to pay you, many will offer it as a benefit, but only up to 8 hours. Basically them saying "we know you're required by law to do this so we'll pay you, but you better try your damnedest to get dismissed in the first day".
And some of the ones that do pay you, require you to turn down the fifteen dollars. That's some sadistic shit right there...
Fair enough if that’s the case. Over here, we get at least a month of paid vacation time and a bunch of days on top of that. So basically, it would just be slightly inconvenient to colleagues if someone had to take a day off. But that’s the same as any sick days, so not much of an issue.
Still though, if you can, I think you should. If nothing else, it’ll give you a front row seat to seeing your judicial system in action. And if you’re a bit more engaged, reading up on things like ‘jury nullification’ is smart if you’re ever called for jury duty.
The best part is that the jury is the right of the criminal, not the community. Rather than having a judge decide your guilt you get to have ordinary people, guaranteed to be your peers, pulled off the street and vetted by the defense and prosecution to be as unbiased as possible to determine your guilt.
Many aspects of the American justice system that seem odd basically come from the goal to ensure fairness for the accused. We’re supposed to take jurisprudence very seriously. And in that vein it would be very nice if we could reduce sentence length to not be an outlier.
You don't have jurys in the Netherlands?
It seems it's not universal in Europe.
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Call this phone number OR WE WILL SEND YOU TO JAIL
oh well it's holiday hours here so call us after 7
Oh well its holiday hours here so no need to report
WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU?
oh well we dropped the case.
In my experience it's more like: decide how much money the rich person's insurance has to give the other rich person because of a small car accident.
I continue to be happy I am personally exempt from jury duty. I'd be fine if it was one of the courthouses in town but noooo they always have to be down in the big city or the fucking state capitol.
Hah, I went to college and work in public service.
I've never been called for jury duty.
Though I did work in a courthouse where juries assembled prior to trial. Criteria for jury selection in that local county court appeared to be: "Ancient and/or racist".
Yeah im self employed, if I take off for jury duty I essentially lose my job. Court doest care, so fuck me I guess. I shred those when I get them and wait for the certified mail ones.
Here's a fun idea, don't admit to federal crimes. You aren't nearly as anonymous as you think.
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