How hard was that? People lived fine before plastic bags. I want to see the end of all single-use plastics outside of a medical setting.
this post was submitted on 25 Sep 2024
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The day MLK was shot, he was in that city to help with a sanitation workers strike. The workers were asking for a couple of things including some way to wash up before leaving to go home. In those days people just threw mixed trash into metal cans unbagged, where the food waste would bleed out their juices and rot all week until garbage day. And those guys had to heave those cans up by hand to dump them out. AND they weren’t given so much as a sink to wash up in before their long bus ride home!
Learning about that made be appreciate the humble garbage bag a lot more.
But I have been using the biodegradable bags for both the trash and the compost for some years now. They are terrible bags and more expensive but it’s something I can deal with and it cuts down on plastic waste.
The real thing you’re going to have trouble with is food packaging. I hear you that people got along without plastics in the 1940s but I’d really like to hear a plan for how we’re going to deliver food to people in today’s world without all the plastics. I mean I really would like to hear that plan! I think it will be hard but we can certainly do a lot more.
It’s just a long way to “medical use only.” The amount of plastic used in Agriculture alone is one of the top sources of plastic in the US. It’s used in sheets to suppress weeds in crop fields, and it is arguably a better alternative than herbicides.
Very insightful discussion. I agree, it’s much easier said than done. I believe we can do better to reduce our use of plastic, but not all use cases will be so easily replaced.
I'm old enough to remember when plastic bags became available in grocery stores. People didn't trust them, so they had displays at the entrances showing the bags holding heavy things, like several two liter soda bottles. They pushed so hard for plastic, saying that it would save the environment, and now they're pushing even harder saying it'll destroy the environment.
That's on the whole probably good news, though I'm having trouble finding immediate satisfaction. Banning plastic bags doesn't necessarily mean less of an impact on the environment. Not without a behavior change, as well.
Plastic bags have the lowest carbon footprint to produce and distribute compared to paper, polypropylene, or cotton. In many places plastic bags (including small produce bags) can be recycled at the grocery store (two near me do but it's easy to miss). I also found plastic very easy to reuse. It's a bit annoying to have to buy trashbags when my reused grocery bags worked fine and were made of less material.
Reusable totes are only as eco friendly as they are reused (about 130 times to equal plastic). Forgetting them and amassing a huge collection is not progress nor is using paper bags once and then recycling them. source
Happy to see attention on the issue but as I haven't always appreciated the nuances or been wary of the green washing in the past, I thought this was worth sharing. Progress is rarely as simple as a new regulation or new product, as strong capitalist forces would want us to believe. If we want meaningful progress we need to foster a culture that consumes less and reuses more.
Plastic bags have the lowest carbon footprint
Why do people only ever talk about the carbon footprint when plastic bans are discussed?
Plastic waste is lying around everywhere, microplastics have been found in placentas and brain stems, the great pacific garbage patch is larger than some micro states.
The environment consists of more than just the atmosphere and we should reduce both greenhouse gases and plastic waste.
Also
plastic bags (including small produce bags) can be recycled at the grocery store (two near me do but it’s easy to miss). I also found plastic very easy to reuse.
That may be so but many people do not recycle or reuse their plastic bags. I would assume this measure is aimed more at them then at you.
Why do people only ever talk about the carbon footprint
To be fair that is not what occurred. The comment was significantly more rounded than that.
Microplastics are the big focus right now, so actually bringing up carbon footprint diversifies the discussion. You’re actually saying stop - don’t bring that up?
I’m old enough to remember when plastic bags were considered the friendly option because they cut down trees to make paper. Anytime people focus only on one aspect, we come to the wrong decision.
Why do people only ever talk about the carbon footprint when plastic bans are discussed?
To remind people they pollute in multiple ways, and reducing one way might increase the other way.
However I’ve never seen a good comparison of the relative severity, only opinion. Is the apple worse for the environment , or the orange?
As I've said before, why not try to reduce both?
And let's be honest: Whenever someone post a sarcastic 'good thing we banned plastic straws' under a topic about CO2 emissions, they're not doing it as a good faith argument that one pollution might avoid the other.
the great pacific garbage patch is larger than some micro states.
Why do people only ever talk about the carbon footprint when plastic bans are discussed?
This is not the case. Ai, crypto, airplanes, cars, meat production, fertilizers, etc are more are on my radar than bag bans. Suggesting otherwise feels combative. I agree that we should reduce both greenhouse gases and plastic waste. I didn't say or even suggest we shouldn't reduce plastic waste. My last sentence ("... we need to foster a culture that consumes less and reuses more.") is inclusive of reducing plastic use and waste.
many people do not recycle or reuse their plastic bags. I would assume this measure is aimed more at them then at you.
And that's why my response was about the behavioral and cultural change. The unintuitive fact about plastic vs paper bag carbon emissions was something I heard about a decade ago and it helped push my understanding of environment impact beyond simply "plastic bad, paper good," and focusing only on waste and not manufacturing and distribution, as well. Regulation is just one tool, and a blunt one at that, but individual choices matter and can operate with more nuance for better results. To be clear, that's not an argument against regulation, it's an argument for acting beyond the baseline that regulation sets.
Edit: formatting, brevity, clarity, typo
Regulation is just one tool, and a blunt one at that, but individual choices matter and can operate with more nuance for better results.
I'll grant that everything else you said were valid considerations but here I disagree.
We need regulation because relying on individual choice doesn't work.
We wouldn't need regulation for emissions if individuals would always chose emission free products.
We wouldn't need regulation for animal welfare if individuals would always chose cruelty free animal product or become vegan.
We wouldn't need speed limits if individuals would always drive safely.
But people are assholes and idiots. They make choices that hurt the environment, society and often even themselves.
I wouldn't say that we disagree. I'm not against regulation. I apologize if I was not clearer about that.
I do think it's a blunt tool, but I also think blunt tools are necessary. I didn't mean to undermine that, I wanted to communicate that a cultural and behavioral shift is an additional tool we need.
Besides the "assholes and idiots," there's also well-meaning but ignorant folks out there. Understandably, too- we're dealing with complex supply chains. It's easy to think switching to paper is better- and it is, on the waste front- but it isn't on the carbon front, not without reusing them a few times. I regret not being clearer and to the point in my original reply.
Growing up, I was focused on the waste problem but it wasn't until I heard an estimate about how many people would die globally in the next few decades if temps rose 2° C instead of 1.5. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the source again, but I remember it was orders of magnitude more than the holocaust. And those are going to be people in vulnerable parts of the world, not the biggest polluters. It really woke me up to the stakes of greenhouse gases. Of course micro plastics are a concern, as well, but I'd have felt much better about the posted news if it were targeting the plastic around food which is so abundant now and harder to reduce, reuse, or recycle.
Anyways, thank you for your pushback. It's helped me realize that I need to be clearer and distinguish my stance from sounding too much like Plastic PR talking points.
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recycled at the grocery store
recycling thin films often doesn't happen without specialized equipment and most regions don't have it. so they collect it, but... it probably goes to a landfill.
I've never viewed getting rid of plastic bags as a carbon saving measure. To me it's addressing how bad they are when they get into the environment. As much as these bags can be reused, most aren't and they just end up thrown out.
They're no problem when properly thrown out, but a huge problem when people litter with them as happens far too much. I hate to see us all punished because a significant portion of people can't stop littering, but I can't see us stopping them...
Now what about food packaging? Everything comes in plastic!
This could not happen soon enough.
Insane that the US isnso behind on these type of laws.
California is like if you bought the EU on wish dot com, at least they're trying
I live in Italy. We have plastic bags made out of plant material. They feel flimsy but they get the job done. They're not very reusable though.
Great for food waste bins
this is what my compost bin liners and dogshit baggies are made of. decomposes in a few days, but fine for their purpose.
no food packaging should last a decade.
Now where will people store all their other plastic bags in under the sink????
We’ve had this in Jersey for a couple of years now. It’s been great. I highly suggest that any Californians who read this go to their nearest grocer within the week after the change goes into effect, I had a grand old time laughing at all the lazy people raging at having to pay for reusable bags. I had already been using my own bags for years so it didn’t change my behavior at all. Has changed how much plastic litter I’ve seen outside, though.
California already had banned single use bags. We've been ~~posting~~ paying for "reusable" plastic bags for a couple years already. This legislation bans all plastic bags, including the reusable types. Now we get to ~~being~~ bring our own bags, or get paper bags.
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Sometimes I still forget to bring a bag, then I need yet another wawa bag, and I just stare at this neverending pile of bags
Just ask for a cardboard box. Supermarkets have masses of boxes which just go to waste or recycling. My local puts them near the checkouts for customers to grab.
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I just walk out of Wawa looking like the “why can’t I hold all these limes” guy.
I always leave one extra bag in my trunk and only use it when I forget the others. That helps in a pinch
We've gotten better about bringing them to the car by making sure empties are in front of the door.
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My Whole Foods just uses paper bags, so I guess this doesn’t affect me :shrug:.
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