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134

Israel says its special forces are inside the largest hospital in southern Gaza. (www.nytimes.com)

submitted 11 months ago by [email protected] to c/world

39 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Israeli troops have entered Nasser Medical Complex, the hospital in southern Gaza where thousands of displaced Palestinians had been sheltering in recent days, Gaza’s health ministry and the Israeli military said on Thursday.

Ashraf al-Qudra, the health ministry’s spokesman, said in a statement that the Israeli military had demolished the complex’s southern wall and begun storming it. In a second statement, he said Israeli forces were targeting the hospital’s orthopedic department, killing one patient and injuring several others.

The Israeli military said in its own statement on Thursday morning that it was “conducting a precise and limited operation inside Nasser” against Hamas, which it accused of hiding in the hospital among wounded civilians. It said it had intelligence, including from released hostages, that Hamas had held hostages at the hospital and that bodies of hostages could be at the hospital.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

why the fuck are they targeting hospitals at all.

and they even brag about it fuck off

[+] [email protected] -41 points 11 months ago (3 children)

They're going after Hamas fighters and hostages

[–] [email protected] 21 points 11 months ago (2 children)

…and don’t show too much concern for the civilians in the midst who die as a result of IDF actions

“Hamas uses them like human shields, we warned them to leave the hospital/the house/the street/Gaza City/Khan Younis/Gaza entirely”

If someone takes a hostage/uses human shields, you don’t stoop to the same level and disregard that human life, bombing/shooting anyway bc ‘muh military necessity’

[+] [email protected] -7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That last part isn't always as black and white as we'd like it to be, though. When (the conventional forces of) ISIS had been surrounded in Raqqa they just bombed and shot the shit out of them, civilians be damned. Horrible, but those that decry it don't usually offer any realistic alternative.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Here’s an alternative then:

Israel makes an effort to provide a space away from the fighting, where civilians can live until “Hamas is destroyed”. It doesn’t even have to be outside of Gaza, but it’s arguably a better security idea to make a new camp inside Israel proper

The IDF made a big noise about ‘defeating’ Al-Qassam in northern Gaza around Gaza City, that was an opportunity to provide a safe area.

Pick an open area, there’s several in the agricultural zones up north
Perform through search for weapons caches, tunnels, etc
Create tent city for displaced civilians
Offer safe passage (but like, actually do it this time) and as people arrive you process them for signs of terrorist activity - explosives swab tests, checked against known terrorist lists, etc

It won't be perfect at keeping militants OUT of the camp, but it would help keep civilians AWAY from the fighting

[–] [email protected] -3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Moving the civilians from Rafah to tent cities is exactly what Israel has proposed. But what do you do with the civilians that choose to remain?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It won't be perfect at keeping militants OUT of the camp, but it would help keep civilians AWAY from the fighting

I’m not falling into the Nirvana fallacy. There will always be holdouts (people were living in Bahkmut during the siege, refusing to evacuate) but that doesn’t then give the IDF permission to throw up their hands and say “welp, we tried - bombs away” Shooting through a human shield is not a moral strategy, nor a long term strategy, and eventually you’ll apply that tactic against the people you’re trying to save, not just ‘enemy’ civilians

[–] [email protected] -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's unclear what you're advocating for then. Why move some civilians to tent cities if you're not going to attack Hamas anyway?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

It’s not a binary choice of “Attac Hamas” or “No attac Hamas” dude. I want Israel to use ✨**proportional force** ✨whilst respecting that Palestinian civilians have a right to exist, and actually restraining themselves beyond fig leaf efforts.

The core objection is the how. Why the massively disproportionate force is encouraged by the IDF as its own ‘tool of terror’ to dissuade the population of those it fights against

'We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective, these are military bases... This isn't a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized.'

Israeli General, Gadi Eisenkot in 2008

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What would you consider proportional force (many stars around it) when people are firing at you from inside a hospital?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I’m happy to answer legitimate questions, but you’re trying reeeeeal hard to paint a corner where you can eke out a ‘win’.

International law is clear re: hospital/mosque/orphanage being used for military purpose, but laws <> morality. The law gives the a-okay to attack the building in use, morality is in complete conflict with that legal permission

[–] Keeponstalin 5 points 10 months ago

When it comes to human shields, the only independent verification back in 2014 (Amnesty link) is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group.

The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too.

HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009

Amnesty on Hamas War Crimes 2023

Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.

While we're on the subject, let's look at how the IDF uses Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'm not trying to eke out anything, I'm trying to make you consider that it's easy to advocate for morality when no one is firing missiles at your house

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

And I’ll repeat my assertion about proportional force. The missiles fired by militants are super ineffective even without the iron dome - inaccurate, limited payload and range, generally subpar explosive filler.

If my house was bombed and my family hurt? Absolutely I’d be enraged and probably want revenge. But that’s no basis for national policy. Israel had broad public support as the more moral side, until they began a government policy of breaking the arms and fingers of Palestinian youth throwing stones. What you want to do, and what you should do often do not overlap:

Defence Minister Yitzhak Rabin shifted the emphasis of repression away from the use of firearms in favour of physical intimidation and economic coercion to re-establish order. In the short term it was successful. He exhorted his troops to use 'might, power and beatings' to restore order." Soldiers armed with cudgels beat up those they could lay their hands on regardless of whether they were demonstrators, or not, breaking into homes by day and night, dragging men and women, young and old, from their beds to beat them. At Gaza's Shifa Hospital 200 people were treated during the first five days of the new policy

[+] [email protected] -9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Unfortunately, its not that simple. Hamas is a terrorist organization that activly targets civilians, often over military targets. Killing them sooner, as well as helping end the war, protects civilian lives. Its a terrible calculus, but when you're fighting an organization that has no respect for law, nor human rights then thats what happens. You kill them, or you let them continue to kill civilians and millitary personal alike.

That said, saying that Israel is just doing this because Hamas is using civilians as a sheild is giving Israel way too much credit. They have repeatedly been caught shooting unarmed and fleeing civilians, targeting refugees, and they have a long history of this treatment towards Palistinians. Israel is almost as willing to kill civilians as Hamas, and actually have the weapons to do so.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago (2 children)

That is literally the opposite of decades of think tank, academic, and military research into Counter Insurgency strategies. You need to show the civilians living in the area that there’s another way via political process, and that rejecting violence is the way forward. Al-Qassam exists and is given permissive operations inside of Gaza because the people view them as the best route to a future. Throwing stones at a brick wall isn’t effective, but to Palestinians in a hopeless scenario it’s understandable to take up violence when the alternative is ethnic destruction in slow-motion.

Israel isn’t offering any solution but continued suffering, displacement as refugees, or ethnic cleansing. I disagree with the Palestinian resistance, but we are here because of years of failed peace processes where Israel rejects the option of dignity for Palestine.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I agree overall, and that was exactly my point with, "history of this behavior towards Palistine". Its also why I felt the need to specify that Israel is killing civilians outside of when Hamas hides behind them. Israel is not a "good guy" here, and their misdeeds are what spurred this on.

My point was on negotiating with terrorists, once they've already turned to violence. If it gets to the point of terrorism, its a lot harder to just let individuals involved walk free. Hamas will just keep trying to kill people, and keep hiding behind civilians, continuing to cost lives.

Again, I agree overall, but even if Israel withdraws from Palistine, walks back all their oppresive policies and agrees to start cracking down on mistreatment from individual Israelis, Hamas won't just disolve overnight nor will radicalized individuals immediately put down their arms. Its a process that takes decades (likely longer given how long and how intensely Israel has been oppressing Palistine), which doesn't help when you're deciding whether or not to shoot the terrorist with a hostage.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

It’s a long road for Northern Ireland, but it’s working right now, despite Brexit issues. The key difference is that the state recognized its role in perpetuating the cycle of violence, and chose to offer another route.

There are a lot of parallels in that resistance struggle with Palestine, but while a good compromise leaves everyone upset today, your children get to grow up hearing bombs on TV, instead of their nightmares.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Plenty of insurgencies have been 'solved' effectively by violence. A lot more actually. And in this case, a peaceful solution is almost impossible because at its roots it's a religious conflict.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

If by ‘solved effectively by violence’ you mean ‘genocided’ or ‘ethnically cleansed’ then yes. Is that what you’re suggesting is proper and good?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Proper and good?? No, it's horrible.

In the case of Western-Sahara though, the threat of extreme violence was enough to pacify the resistance without any political concessions.

But my main point here is that because of religious differences, both zionist and muslim fundamentalists will never be able to peacefully coexist, as they believe god doesn't want them to. And there are plenty of them on both sides

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

Unfortunately true, and we’re arming one side currently. I want no holy wars, but I definitely don’t want to be allied to a belligerent to one.

Hadn’t heard of the Western Sahara case before, thanks for the reading 👍

[–] Linkerbaan -5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Reported

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm not sure what is reportable there. Im literally saying civilian deaths should be minimized. Is it because I'm acknowledging Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think you've replied to the wrong comment

Anyway that user has a history of, how should I put it... Not really valuing opposing viewpoints

[–] Linkerbaan -3 points 11 months ago

Not appreciating genocide is a better description. Get outta here.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago

They are going for ethnic cleansing, and its pretty obvious by now.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Israel troops shot Hamas fighters.
Hamas fighters got hurt, went to hospital
"We found Hamas in this hospital"
????

[–] Land_Strider 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You forgot:

5 - Profit (and many dead people)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

And apparently their injuries weren't so severe so they had time to stash their weapons in the hospital.

Just a normal everyday thing to stash assault rifles and grenades in a hospital, right?

[–] ikidd 4 points 10 months ago

The last time they "found" weapons it came out that they had planted them.

[–] Gazumi 24 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Such heroes! Using only vastly superior weapons and tech, they overcame steep military odds and took a hospital. ..... (Sarcasm plus tears)

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago

War is not a sport where things are supposed to fair for either side.

What you should think on is why did Hamas start a war with an enemy with vastly superior weapons and tech by going into villages and butchering women and children? What was their goal?

[–] apfelwoiSchoppen 11 points 11 months ago

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/maureen-clare-murphy/israel-lays-siege-gaza-hospital-rafah-stares-death-face

Less focus on what the IDF says.

[–] WheelcharArtist 7 points 11 months ago

It is a special operation, they denazify.....

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

I wish all IOF soldiers were in the hospital smh