b b but it breeds innovation!!!!1!1!1
I feel that innovation flow through me when I go down to the supermarket to pick from my selection of 27 brands of cola based soda, and 39 varieties of plain salted chips.
It breeds inbreeds to be realistic
BuT hOw WoUlD yOu PaY fOr It?!
Was much better before capitalism.
Not that I think capitalism is good, but how exactly does any other system solve it? And I'm talking about real-world systems, not the idealized ones. Because the made-up unrealistic fable of capitalism has no problem with this either.
Yeah no system is perfect.
Centrally controlled education. We need 500 doctors this year, assign the seats, nobody else can get it. Also, doctors have the same lifestyle as any other professional.
Anyone can study anything for free, sure, great. How long so you let people study to become doctors for? How do you ration enrollment? (We don't have infinite teachers), how do you decide who gets to practice? Lots of filter classes? If the country has 1000 doctor vacancies a year, do you produce 3000 doctors? For the 2000 who don't get to practice, do they maintain their license? Etc... this will increase supply, good thing, which will reduce pay, and reduce student demand. How long do you take to find the equilibrium?
The need for doctors is usually a supply/demand situation, but even then it can be predicted ahead of time, so the universities can open for more students in advance.
There's never a perfect balance, so certain jobs can also advertised in other countries, creating a sort of job import and export.
"There are no completely healthy people, only underdiagnosed"
I don't disagree, I just don't follow how this is relevant in this context?
Oops, I think I responded to wrong comment. It means there is never oversupply of doctors. I can't find comment that mentioned perfectly healthy nation.
Ah. No problem. Yes you're right. There's never an oversupply of doctors.
However, in a fully state controlled healthcare system, there's still a limit to what patients can request for free. Like, boob jobs or other cosmetical surgery. Unless it's for a health care reason, it's for the patients to pay for that operation, so the demand for those kind of doctors are limited to demand, while demand for doctors treating actual illnesses are limited by supply.
Uh, grades.
You take Doctor 101 and get a C-, well the number of students who graded A-B filled the Doctor 102 class. Study up, and either retake the class or take a test to prove you know the information. You scored high enough on your test? Rad, welcome to the class. This is actually what we do anyway so, you're overthinking things there.
Number of jobs is a weird limitation for gatekeeping professionals. If we only need X amount of doctors, then we're an entirely healthy world with zero illness and no room for new minds to create entirely new methods and further our understanding of medicine? I want anyone driven enough to practice medicine to do so, it's the only way we'll have enough doctors to fix the massive healthcare deficit we're experiencing. Especially through the above grading methods I suggested.
As for the pay decreases, hard to say really without doing it. If an employer believes your education is less valuable because more people can achieve the same, they're a shitty place to work and they'll get what they pay for. There's also the possibility of those doctors being more affordable actually expanding the availability of healthcare overall.
I get why it's worth questioning, but it's broken now so why can't we try to fix it? What if the fix works? Awesome right? What if the fix doesn't work? Good thing the current broken system could act as a fallback, right?
Yeah absolutely. We should always be thinking about how to improve systems. I'm not saying we shouldn't look at it. But we shouldn't say this system is totally broken. Which seems to have been the overall thesis of the original post
Oh, no the system is absolutely broken. I'm just trying to give you a rational explanation to the concerns you raised. I've worked hard my entire life and been screwed over every step of the way. I'm unemployed, living with family, and can't afford to see a doctor. I apply for jobs but never hear back. I learned Python and Linux just because I felt like it, so I'm not unskilled. Ruined my spine unloading trucks in my early 20's, so I can't really do anything manual labor. But like, shit I feel worthless, and I don't think a functional system would put anyone through that. I can't even get assistance because I'm "too young and healthy" so like, fuck me for existing I guess.
“No system is perfect” motherfucker we can see how free/cheap higher education works in several european countries and yeah, they use grades to select students, same way U.S. schools do.
Also, how is the free market any better than your first ~~strawman~~ concept? Only instead of the gubmint telling you you can’t go, it’s exceeding expensive educational facilities and the circumstances of your birth.
No need for personal insults.
What do you mean by "real, not idealised"? All such things are ideals until put into practice.
That's an America problem, not a capitalism problem. Free, or at least highly subsidised, higher education isn't exactly limited to communist countries.
To be fair, it's not just an America problem.
Capitalism can keep people from studying because they need to work instead, or maybe they were in a low-income area and didn't get the chance to go to a good school to get the grades or knowledge they needed before higher education, etc.
Capitalism effects every facet of our lives, even in developed countries where we try to spend money to counter it's damages.
That's a fair point, especially about the low income areas which is definitely also a big issue here in Germany.
Sure, but that's kind of what Bafög is for. Sure that's also a loan, but one with very favourable terms.
Even just free higher education is not enough under capitalism. You need to live somewhere and eat something while you learn. Also reminds me about one comment I wrote. Here's copy-pasta:
American "left": maybe we shold do some student debth relif? Just a tini-tiny. If you don't mind.
Rest of the world right: universal education, more funding!
Rest of the world center: universal education, state must provide students with everything(including housing and food) so they don't worry about anything else other than learning, state must provide teachers with everything(including decent salary) so they don't wory about anything else other than teaching, state must provide universities with all necessary equipment, buildings must be maintained in good condition(so ceiling wouldn't fall on students' and teachers' heads)!
On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have viable career paths that are NOT being selected because the income simply won't be enough. We miss out on a lot of talented and motivated individuals that would love to get into a particular field, but it just doesn't pay as well. Teachers and corrections officers come to mind. The career I'm in was not my first choice, but it pays better than what I wanted to do.
Idk, I've never made enough money to live on and at this point never expect to. I'd rather do something I'm passionate about while I die under capitalism, than sit here feeling useless while I die under capitalism. Shit is depressing and unsustainable.
To be fair the correctional system in its current form in North America is primarily constructed and controlled by capitalist interests.
Fully agree with this. Anything in the arts immediately comes to mind. Not just performing arts either - history, literature, and philosophy fields have a lot more uncertainty with income than others.
This is one of the reasons why I favor UBI and universal health care. I think there's a growing deficit in overall creativity, leisure, and social engagement that the arts and other so-called lower-income jobs provide to society. And its not that people care more about money. You just dont have the option to pursue these jobs when your income level affects life or death decisions for you and your loves ones.
We can also say this is a failure of culture too. Let's take a look at doctors: why do they need so much education in the form we do it now? You, dear reader, could almost certainly do a doctor's job after a couple years of apprenticeship, even if you aren't very bright.
Not that I'm anti education, i think everyone should have a broad education that is at the very least more comprehensive then what we currently have in America.
I kind of get the point you're trying to make but I very much disagree. This line of thinking is one of the reasons US healthcare is so hellbent on pushing PAs and NPs to fill the doctor gap. And it's not working because there is no substitute for a well trained doctor or specialist.
You, dear reader, could almost certainly do a doctor's job after a couple years of apprenticeship, even if you aren't very bright.
That would be feldsher, not doctor.
Honestly, it's not just capitalism. Education is anywhere from free to really cheap in Germany, and we still don't get many people from poorer families into uni.
I see the main problem here as a sort of class divide between people with university degrees and people without. For example: if you work in a public library and don't have a uni degree you will never get more money than salary level 9 (4k/mo) just having a degree and not doing any more/different work more or less instantly puts you on 12 or higher (6k+)
This I think understandably makes people without uni degrees kind of resentful of those who do have them. And if you grow up resenting a certain group of people you are much less likely to join them.
So, no. "Just" getting rid of the cost won't magically get these people into higher education.
Usually when people are in favour of getting rid of capitalism, they’re also in favour of getting rid of hierarchies such as class divide.
Sure, but one does not inherently include the other.
Disagree about librerians because it is skilled profession and good librerian needs to be very educated, but yes,
"Just" getting rid of the cost won't magically get these people into higher education.
I thought capitalism had something to do with capitalists owning the means of production and alienating labor from their work. Where I live most universities are public entities.
capitalists owning the means of production and alienating labor from their workers.
Here. I fixed it for you.
Not to nitpick but I think both of sentences are correct. Labor can mean both the people who do work or the work itself.
You probably live in a social democracy, universities being public means there's some flavor of socialism (as in social democracy, not communism) in your country, with a regulated free market and capitalism.
I feel like its almost a lottery in canada, I know a few people on their 4th-5th round of applications years after getting a university degree. These are good candidates too, 90-something average, volunteer... and then we wonder why theres a huge shortage of family doctors and wait times.
In some other countries-turned-shitholes the reason is shit working conditions and shit salary. By salary I mean 500€/mo
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
I had a friend as a kid who made straight A’s the first semester in school every year, then straight F’s to the last semester where he’d pick it up just enough to pass. I remember a teacher laughing at him because his cousin blacked his eye while he was fighting his mother, “Oh, you mean a girl did that?”
Once he got to high school he couldn’t pass the 9th grade because the strategy of passing the first and last semester didn’t work anymore. He dropped out and got his GED. He took the test one time, scored 90% higher than average.
He slept in class every day because he spent his nights prepared to fight his dad when his dad attacked his mom.
I remember in middle school when the regular teacher was out long term for surgery, he handed a test to the substitute and she cried and apologized for not paying closer attention to him. She worked with him after that and he passed her class.
The last time I seen him, he was strung out on heroin and doing nothing. We went to school together from the 3rd grade until he dropped out and I only ever seen two teachers really try to help him. Police came to the school one time to photograph his bruise covered body and nothing ever came of it.
He used to write stories and give them to me on the bus. I asked him if he kept writing. He told me he hadn’t since his early 20s.
I can’t stand to think about how many kids out there have so much potential, only they’re stranded on an island with nowhere to put it.
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