submitted 10 months ago by peppy to c/fediverse

I just read this point in a comment and wanted to bring it to the spotlight.

Meta has practically unlimited resources. They will make access to the fediverse fast with their top tier servers.

As per my understanding this will make small instances less desirable to the common user. And the effects will be:

  1. Meta can and will unethically defedrate from instances which are a theat to them. Which the majority of the population won't care about, again making the small instances obsolete.
  2. When majority of the content is on the Meta servers they can and will provide fast access to it and unethically slow down access to the content from outside instances. This will be noticeable but cannot be proved, and in the end the common users just won't care. They will use Threads because its faster.

This is just what i could think of, there are many more ways to be evil. Meta has the best engineers in the world who will figure out more discrete and impactful ways to harm the small instances.

Privacy: I know they can scrape data from the fediverse right now. That's not a problem. The problem comes when they launch their own Android / iOS app and collect data about my search and what kind of Camel milk I like.

My thoughts: I think building our own userbase is better than federating with an evil corp. with unlimited resources and talent which they will use to destroy the federation just to get a few users.

I hope this post reaches the instance admins. The Cons outweigh the Pros in this case.

We couldn't get the people to use Signal. This is our chance to make a change.

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[-] ScaNtuRd 303 points 10 months ago

I'm hoping that ALL admins across the Fediverse will defederate from Meta. At least we get to have our own separate platform then.

[-] [email protected] 91 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

They shouldn't just defederate from Meta, they should defederate from any other instances that federate with Meta. Like a firewall against late stage capitalism

[-] [email protected] 41 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

But that is a double-edged sword. What if, for example, mastodon.social doesn't defederate with Meta, but you defederate mastodon.social? Now you've just cut yourself off from a huge portion of the fediverse. Admins should defederate from Meta if their community wants to do that, but defederating from other instances that didn't do that is going a bit too far, in my opinion.

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[-] menemen 106 points 10 months ago
[-] [email protected] 30 points 10 months ago

Damn, that's a terrifying vision of the future. I was on the fence with defederating, but we probably should.

Your comment should be top.

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[-] [email protected] 106 points 10 months ago

For those who don't know, the strategy is called Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. The phase comes from Microsoft who used this to (try to) crush competing document editors, Java implementations, browsers, and operating systems. Other big tech companies employ similar strategies.

Facebook coming to the Fediverse is the Embrace phase of this process and that makes Mastodon, Lemmy, Kbin, Misskey, and Akkoma the competitors.

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[-] Lenins2ndCat 87 points 10 months ago

I think the issue being missed here is that Meta will ultimately aim to suck all users into themselves, and then once they feel they've done enough of that, they will go completely closed, even potentially forking the protocol itself. If any legal attempt to stop this is made they will bog it down with hordes of lawyers for decades.

Their goal is not to help fediverse, it is recognising fediverse to be a threat and aiming to absorb it. Literally no different to how reddit slowly absorbed all internet forums into itself, killing the distributed internet.

Fediverse is attempting to bring back that distributed internet and they're trying to find ways to kill it. All corporations seek monopoly, it's how capitalism works.

[-] [email protected] 22 points 10 months ago

Spot on. Anyone cooperating with them is a fool.

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[-] _cerpin_taxt_ 80 points 10 months ago

If I wanted to see content from my racist Trumper uncle, I would just create a Facebook account. Keep Threads far away from the rest of the Fediverse. We don't need to compete with them. Who cares if they're way bigger with way more content if 99% of that content is garbage?

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[-] [email protected] 68 points 10 months ago

tbh, as a small instance, i might be defederating meta. im not a fan of the person that has everything through theft and scam.

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[-] [email protected] 65 points 10 months ago

Regardless of what anyone thinks about politics, nothing good will come by letting them in. I hope all current instances defederate, I know mine will.

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[-] [email protected] 58 points 10 months ago

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

How many things will we let them ruin before we finally learn that corporations cannot be trusted?

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[-] JshKlsn 53 points 10 months ago

One thing I don't understand is why would meta even federate with anyone outside of their own instances anyway?

Makes no sense to ever open up to allow any other instances in. Not like they are crying for users.

The fediverse just makes sense in their own bubble. Turn Facebook, Instagram, and their other apps into the fediverse and federate them all together.

I don't expect them to ever open up to the actual fediverse. Same with BlueSky. I feel like all of these companies will USE the fediverse but in a closed bubble.

[-] [email protected] 38 points 10 months ago

On one hand, I think it could be possible that Meta is planning to federate with the fediverse with the ultimate goal of destroying it and replacing it with their own instances. Similar to what Google did with XMPP according to this article. https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html

On the other hand, I also think it could be possible Meta is wanting to federate with the fediverse just so it can increase it's data collection many times quicker. Why manage servers when you can connect to other servers and suck up data as and when Threads users interact with other lemmy instances.

No idea which is more likely.

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[-] [email protected] 52 points 10 months ago


We have to stick to our guns and keep supporting the small instances.

Admins needs to strike first and defederate from Meta before they do.

#fediverse #mastodon #lemmy

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[-] d00phy 49 points 10 months ago

Currently Reddit has significantly more users than Lemmy. Has that stopped people from signing up to Lemmy? Twitter has has significantly more users than Mastodon since forever. Has that stopped people from signing up for Mastodon? Has it killed Mastodon?

The common error I see in all the "Threads will kill the Fediverse" mania is that it assumes the same people who sign up for Threads would have otherwise signed up for Mastodon/Lemmy/Kdin/etc. 99.9% of them probably never would have. They want something that's easy and just works; and they're willing to let a company profit off their data to have it.

[-] [email protected] 53 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I don’t think those are good comparisons. The point he is trying to make is that when a user joins Lemmy and sees a two gaming subs, one on Lemmy.world and the other on a meta instance with more subscribers, that user will join the meta sub.

I do not want to see only corporations holding the keys to the majority of communities and if they are allowed in that will be their goal. Meta doesn’t give a shit if the 3dprinting sub has quality content, only that it is profitable for them. Corporations will choose profit over the users every time.

People will say “well if it gets bad or they start becoming bad actors then we can drop them” but that will just set us back to where we are right now. I would rather see us grow slow without corporations than fast with them.

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[-] dystop 47 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Everyone is talking about defederating because of XMPP and EEE. But the very fact that we know about EEE means that it's much less likely to succeed.

Zuck is seeing the metaverse crash and burn and he knows he needs to create the next hot new thing before even the boomers left on facebook get bored with it. Twitter crashing and burning is a perfect business opportunity, but he can't just copy Twitter - it has to be "Twitter, but better". Hence the fediverse.

From Meta's standpoint, they don't need the Fediverse. Meta operates at a vastly different scale. Mastodon took 7 years to reach ~10M users - Threads did that in a day or two. My guess is that Zuck is riding on the Fediverse buzzword. I'm sure whatever integration he builds in future will be limited.

TL;DR below:

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[-] Cruxifux 46 points 10 months ago

Meta WILL fuck up everything they touch with an aggressive amount of ads. I do not want this future.

[-] [email protected] 45 points 10 months ago

One of the things that I feel isn't being thought about much, is that it isn't just Meta's ideology and policies that will harm smaller instances and the fediverse itself; but the volume of data that their userbase will generate.

For smaller instances like mine running on six vcores, 4GB of memory, 512GB storage and a 120Mbps network...I feel like all it would take is a handful of users federating with them and the data flow alone would destroy our resources at the network if not disk level.

No, I don't plan on allowing my instance to see or interact with theirs; but the point applies to all small instances and part time hobby servers. We don't have the means to take on the data they could throw out into the federated network.

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[-] LordEdubbz 40 points 10 months ago

Everyone is really scrambling now as if they really thought up to now that the Fediverse was immune to corpo bullshit

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[-] [email protected] 34 points 10 months ago

I'm totally willing to discuss my thoughts since it seems I'm in the minority on this threads mania-

Once Threads launches it'll obviously have a lot more users than the whole fediverse combined, maybe even 90% of all users. Now let's say some instances with barely 1-2% users and small content feed defederate from it. Do people think a new user who does not care about things like open source or privacy will join the niche instance? No, people will go where the content is. Big social media giants will jump on fediverse bandwagon and instances who dont fetch their data will become extremely niche communtites (some might like that but it's not good for overall fediverse health).

Instead let's say we keep federated with threads, and make posts like how YSK: other instances don't track your data, other instances are free from corpo greed, other instances are run by normal people etc etc and make users aware and let them naturally migrate. Ideally, meta will bring the eyeballs which we can help to make fediverse as a whole grow.

imo it's naive to think that us 100k users defederating will put even a dent on threads. Insta tik-tok people will join the new trendy social media and generate content. The only solution is to make people constantly aware that better alternatives to view the same content exist.

[-] alertsleeper 28 points 10 months ago

The potential problem is not us making a dent on Threads, I couldn't care less if people want to use it. The potential problem is that they do the EEE (link1, link2) on the Fediverse. It's not us trying to steal users from them, or preventing people from joining them, it's about preventing them from becoming the standard way for people to access the Fediverse, thus giving them control over the protocol's direction and giving them the possibility to, once they are the de facto standard, defederate and kill the rest of small communities.

That, and personally, I wouldn't like Meta meddling with the protocol, simply because there is no beneficial outcome for them other than gaining control of it, which would be horrible.

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[-] mintiefresh 33 points 10 months ago

I will continue to use Mastodon and Lemmy.

Doing my part!

[-] [email protected] 33 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The content I want to have will never be on a meta server. And even if, I will not federate with them and not use them.

For the exact same reasons I also don't use Facebook.

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[-] [email protected] 31 points 10 months ago

yeah, i really, well and truly do not wish to be linked with meta on fediverse. it's obvious the damage it will do either way. may as well stay as we are and avoid the termoil which meta will bring us should they decide to federate.

[-] Supervisor194 31 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I don't think this will matter at all. The first instance that brands itself as "we only federate with instances that exclude all relationships with Meta," is the instance I will be in and all the people who I want to hang around will be there also. Federating with Meta will be like holding a flashing neon sign that says "stay away from me."

I don't want anything to do with Reddit anymore and I haven't had anything to do with Twitter or Facebook for more than 10 years - and all for similar reasons. Huge groups of people brought together by money are fucking poison.

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[-] CosmicCat 30 points 10 months ago

I don't think this looks very good, but if we want a fighting chance, we can definitely do two things:

  1. We need to make using other instances of Lemmy and kbin extremely easy. Seamless. Two taps on your phone simple. Sign up with Google. All that jazz. Then the most basic user will have an easier time choosing a non-Threads instance.

  2. We need to, ironically I guess, advertise our LACK of advertisements. No matter how they do it, I'd bet anything Treads will integrate ads somehow, so this is a way we can quickly stand out.

On another note, users will want to go where the content lives. Of course, that makes this much more difficult. We all know Threads will be big, almost immediately. So, should we defederate with Threads like many of us are planning? This will keep us "safe" but we'll lose all the new content. Or should we instead remain federated to keep seeing the content? Of course this doesn't stop Threads from defederating from us themselves, so I truly don't know the answer.

No matter what, I think we need to stand out to average social media users in a big way. I think my two points above are just a start, though. We need to offer more.

I don't have high hopes, but I'm planning to fight like hell for our little paradise in any way I can.

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[-] magnolia_mayhem 28 points 10 months ago

I see your panic and raise you a "what's the solution?"

[-] candyman337 55 points 10 months ago

Keep it separate, mass de-federate. The biggest lemmy instance has to make a stance.

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[-] schroedingershat 26 points 10 months ago

Defederate the big corps immediately.

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[-] jimmy90 25 points 10 months ago
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[-] Steveanonymous 23 points 10 months ago

Defederate from any instance that federated with meta.

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this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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