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Australia's 'retirement age' just became 67. So why are the French so upset about working until 64? (theconversation.com)

submitted 2 years ago by sabbah to c/world

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[–] TheSporkBomber 140 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Just because something is worse somewhere else doesn't mean you should be happy when things only get slightly worse where you are. They are angry because not only they are historically againt pension reforms, and the way the government forced through the bill by bypassing parliament in a legal method, but one that shows they are really just forcing this down despite popular opinion being very, very against it.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This.

"Someone else has it worse" is the cry of someone who wants you to have it worse, too. It's just promoting a race to the bottom.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

it’s easy to just yell “hippie” at someone with healthy boundaries they feel threatened by.

[–] kokesh 90 points 2 years ago (3 children)

You work work work and when you finally can enjoy your life, you're old. Brilliant system.

[–] SomeoneElse 44 points 2 years ago (1 children)

My mum has just been diagnosed with terminal cancer aged 61. I know people lose their parents much earlier, but I am furious that she worked so hard her entire life just to die before she reached retirement.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago

My condolences. Hugs. I hope she's not in pain D:

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

With your permission...

You work work work to barely afford necessities like shelter and food and when you finally can enjoy your life, you’re old. Brilliant system.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You work work work to barely afford necessities like shelter and food and when you finally can enjoy your life, you’re old and still can't afford shit. Brilliant system.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

They're so right, if only I had worked more 🥴

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago

You load sixteen tons, what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt. St. Peter, don't you call me, 'cuz I can't go. I owe my soul to the company store.

[–] cerevant 61 points 2 years ago

When I was a kid, retirement age was 55. Raising the retirement age does nothing more than funnel more money into the pockets of the rich.

[–] [email protected] 55 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Counter question:

Why are the Australians not more mad?

Work is shit. Nobody wants to work.

[–] OnRequest 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Aussies aren't big on protesting against anything. They just grumble and get on with it. Wouldn't want to be called a whinger.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

But yet they’ll throw stuff at the clerk if they take too long to ring them up or sneak in a tax at the register.

Or tossing out their PM at the drop of a hat.

Or someone trying to hijack a plane

Or drunks on the bus.

I think they are big on protesting. They don’t see it as whinging either. They see it as not putting up with shit.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

No, they're right. Speaking as an Australian protester - we have a very conformist culture here. We haven't been taught to imagine outside the status quo, it's why Yank flavour and Neoliberal policies get pushed uncritically here. We're sectioned off in the little castles of our homes - we have to seek out any form of community that isn't our workplaces in the first place, let alone subversion, let alone (toothless and state captured) protest, let alone direct action and informed praxis.

We might have once, but the majority of Australians don't know shit about anything that isn't themselves. We might want to look out for ours - but that circle is very small for mainstream Australia and you bet your ass that's manipulable by wealthy interests.

Not all of us, but the majority of us are spineless people terrified we're not safe enough.

[–] InverseParallax 8 points 2 years ago

That's not entirely true.

Lot of CEOs LOVE their job, bankers too.

It's just the people doing actual work who tend to hate their jobs.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

It depends, right? There are lots of people who enjoy working, but the problem is that the work that people want to do isn't the work that bosses want them to do. In studies on UBI, very few people choose to become couch potatoes.

[–] rumckle 2 points 2 years ago

Cost of living is so shit here that most people can't afford to retire at that age anyway. There might be some older Gen-Xers who complain, but they're not exactly known for protesting.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 2 years ago (1 children)

better question is why isnt the rest of the world joining the french?

[–] JiveTurkey 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is the real question.

[–] EvilEyedPanda 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

An aversion to starvation, right now alot of people would starve without they're next paycheck, exactly as the system intends it.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Is this a legitimate question? Seriously?

It's funny that we never see headlines like "The rich already have lots of money. So why are they so upset about proposed tax increases?"

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

“Why are the rich so upset about paying a living wage?”

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago

Switzerland's wealth tax is only 0.3 - 0.5 percent. So why are U.S. billionaires so upset over 0.0 percent?

[–] sycamore 35 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Because of all the advances over the past generation from email to AI have all combined to make the economy at least twice as productive as it was 30 years ago but we aren't seeing any benefit.

The years of leisure workers get at the end of their career should be increasing, not decreasing. Where are all the productivity gains going?

"Oh, but people are living longer" OK, but we're also generating twice as much wealth over our careers than the generation before us, and instead of more retirement years or shorter working weeks all we see is billionaire pricks buying up media conglomerates.

Good luck to the French people. Keep it up. Get angry.

[–] anonono 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

So that they don't have to work until 67.

I mean if it were for the government they would put old people in an island and nuke it from time to time.

Enjoying the fruits of your labor? How dare you.

It's also true that population is living longer and younger generations are not having kids. I mean there's a little trick most don't know is that those contributions in the form of taxes that you made all your life towards retirement, most of it gets spent immediately by the government. So if younger generations don't have kids to keep the ponzi running the whole thing falls apart, and one of the symptoms is this, the need to raise retirement age.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 years ago

Because we can take the needed wealth from the stupidly rich instead of trying to make old people drag on 2 extra years.

There is s lot of unemployment at over 50 too, and that will just cost the society anyways while bringing suffering (instead of retirement :-)

[–] daanzel 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's good to know that in France, there is a required number of "working years" next to the retirement age. So for many people 64 is already not an option as they went to university for example. I often hear people argue that the French shouldn't complain because in country X it's age Y, but for a lot of French it's already Y or >Y (I don't know the exact details though as I'm not French, but have family there. So feel free to add or correct me)

[–] sonovebitch 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

IIRC (haven't looked into the details recently) in France you can have full pension from 64yo IF you've worked every year from 18yo. You can retire earlier, but your pension will be cut down for each month not "cotisé" up to 64.

I think years of high school don't typically count, but there are ways to "convert" or "buy" those years back for the calculation of your pension. Parental leave also can be converted.

So yes, the less you work, the longer it takes to unlock 100% of your pension funds.

EDIT: I just checked. To be eligible for full pension at 64 in France (full pension is 50% of the average of the best 25 years salaries) you need to have "cotisé" for 498 or 516 months (depending on your year of birth). Missing months can be bought back, or you can take a lower pension.

[–] capnminus 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Assumimg four weeks in a month, that's 2,064 weeks/43 years. In Mexico, you "only" need 1,250 weeks, or 25 years or work (although the pension is locked until you're 65 years old.

That's an insane number.

[–] sonovebitch 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thanks for doing the math. With that, it means a french worker must work every single month without any gap from 21yo to 64yo to be eligible for full pension. Literally live to work.

Fun fact: french policitians (and some other specific work fields) "cotisent" months faster. Our deputies can get the full pension unlocked after only 5 years of work (while it takes us plebs >40 years).

Liberté, Égalité*, Fraternité, brothers...

*Different terms may apply

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I really fucking hope we can muster up at least 2 more terms of democratic majority in the US as my ass creeps toward taking "early" retirement at 62. Republicans have a hard on for stripping every social program, and Social Security is the most socialist thing they want to strip and give to the War Machine.

[–] LegalAction 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's pretty unlikely to get two more terms of a democratic presidency. Biden wasn't VP when he won. The last VP to be elected was Bush 1. Before him, LBJ, special circumstances. Truman, also special circumstances. That takes us back nearly 100 years.

Maybe if Kamala were to step aside we could get a governor as the nominee, but that seems unlikely even though governors have better records in presidential elections. Biden didn't run when he was VP, but I don't remember another VP that stepped away from the ticket voluntarily.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Yeah I know, they have a habit of pissing away any advantage...system is working as intended.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago

For the record, OP posted the article title and not a question of their own.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

We've been producing more and more year after year, the working hours have practically not changed in 50 years. And somehow we have no money to put in any social platform and we have had austerity measures for decades at this point. And now we have to work for longer. All the while billionaires exist and are getting richer by the second, yet a lot of people struggle to eat or retire decently.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

The world population has also exploded over the last 50 years, which is something nobody takes into account.

1973 - 3.92 billion people 2023 - 8 billion people

For 1968, so 65 years ago, when people at retirement age today were born, the population was 2.9 billion people. So from birth to retirement, a freshly retired person today has seen 5 billion more people get added to the world.

With increasing population you need more resources to fund social platforms. We have been producing more and more but we have also consumed more and more. Not just food, but planned obsolesence for things like phones and washing machines and whatever else has guaranteed that there will always be a need to consume, therefore a need to produce - hence the working hours staying the same while productivity increases.

But, with increased production and consumption you stimulate the economy, so you get growth. In theory. The fact that that growth gets hoarded by the dragons you also mentioned is an unfortunate phenomenon.

But I digress. My point was that increased productivity is not the only variable at play here.

I still don't agree with the increased pension age, though.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago (3 children)

And it's 70 for almost 10 years in Italy!

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's pretty f*cked up. Sure, there are some jobs where you can make a decent contribution at that age – historian? librarian? sure, why not. But please don't force bus drivers to keep working until that age

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

In Italy there are classes of jobs that still allow to go earlier. It's not flat.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

hey no fair. you're comparing a fascist shit hole

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It's way before this government. It's just that to pay pensions you need people. And there are few compared to the old ones.

So or get the pension or retire earlier without money 😒

[–] capt_wolf 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

73 for me in the US! I'll likely be dead before I get to see retirement...

I should note, that's tge projected date for my retirement plan. The "official" age is still 65...

[–] Blamemeta 5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Because Australians don't have any fight in them. They're subjects, not citizens. Sane thing with guns and the hentai ban.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The US has guns, and also get as fucked by their government as characters in the tentacle hentai they can consume there. It's probably more the Rupert Murdoch media empire's influence and the disillusionment from their corrupt government.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

I think weak labor protections for a people that commonly live paycheck to paycheck with health insurance from those jobs, poor social programs should they lose those jobs and a police force that has a robust history of violently shutting down protests might also have a hand

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

TIL hentai is banned in Australia lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

They have plenty of fight in them to not have taxes snuck in on a price or hijack of an airplane or fuck around on public transit. Or kicking out a PM.

All things I see other countries pretty much bend over and take it like it’s medicine.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

cuz yall are cucked

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