The discourse on American politics sometimes devolves to "Leftists who won't vote" & "MAGA Republicans" teaming up to "getting revenge on liberals".
this post was submitted on 28 Mar 2024
241 points (90.0% liked)
196
16511 readers
2659 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
"Revenge"?
Vindictiveness doesn't have anything to do with it, I just can't bring myself to vote for genocide.
If anything, it's resignation and apathy as everything I predicted back in 2016 continues to come to pass.
Trump is going to win in November because the Democrats care more about preserving their AIPAC financing than representing their constituents.
Okay then vote against genocide.
Donald Trump is Genocide at home and abroad.
Joe Biden is "only" Genocide abroad, and probably less of it.
Therefore, a vote for Joe Biden is a Vote against genocide.
No, it doesn't matter that he's an active participant in the apparatus that's creating the genocide, because if he's in office there's less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. By abstaining from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide, if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the ammount of genocide.
The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.
You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it's not a bad idea.
Okay, then put it on the ballot.
On the contrary, I think it matters very much.
By voting, you are prolonging the existence of the United States and guaranteeing that the genocides it supports will continue. You have made yourself an active participant in reifying the implied consent of the governed that entitles the government to act on your behalf, and with your consent it will continue to ship weapons to apartheid regimes.
The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes the governments' dealings with the Israel appear legitimate and discourages people from taking meaningful action which might alter that relationship. Therefore, discouraging people from voting is an anti-genocide strategy.
Sophistry. Half the U.S. doesn't vote in elections, and they're still a global super power. Whoever told you that is an idiot.
More sophistry. The government's legitimacy isn't brought into question by a lack of votes; your actions are no different from someone who is simply politically disengaged and apathetic.
Keeping quiet isn't an effective component of destroying the United States. Engaging in this argument the way that you are is a pro-genocide strategy because you are increasing the probability of more genocide.
You admit that half of the country is already on my side and still call it sophistry?
That's because our government isn't democratic. It only pretends to be so that the citizenry doesn't depose it.
Hence, this discussion.
As opposed to engaging in this argument in the way that you are, begging me to vote for more genocide because you're afraid the wrong half of our two-faced, one-party government would be put in charge of it.
Nope, that's a misrepresentation of my argument and you know it.
✨ Correct. ✨
I love happy roadkill, and I'm familiar with this comic. I'd have gone with the one where the elephant is reaching down the donkey's pants, though; it gets your message across more poignantly.
The the two parties form a bulwark against mainstream progressive political action. This is an inarguable fact, and if the option were between the DNC and green party, I'd vote green. The GOP is currently in a state of extreme disunity; it's in a condition strikingly similar to the whigs prior to their dissolution and so losing Texas will likely cause the party to fracture as well as giving Biden a guaranteed victory. Once the GOP is made irrelevant, a left-wing electoral movement may be able (with the help of non-electoral leftist activitists) to form a genuine left-wing party, which will make direct action easier and our ultimate victory just that much closer and more likely.
I was looking for a more apropos non-HappyRoadkill one, "They say the next one will be sent by a woman." "Really makes you feel like a part of history" as the drone drops bombs over them. But it must be buried deep in my image collection.
I'd certainly hope so, but the more realistic assessment is a split among the Democrats. Half of them will want to keep their current rightward drift in hopes of attracting ex-Republican voters, the other half will break off towards centrism, maybe social democracy if we're really lucky.
I'll admit that I hadn't considered the possibility of the democratic party fracturing. I disagree that it's more likely; the democrats are expecting defeat, don't seem to be as fed up with each other, and I think a victory is likely to strengthen the party rather than strain it. However, it definitely bears consideration and I'll try to figure out likely scenarios with the assumption that it does occur. Thank you for bringing the possibility to my attention.
It seems more likely to me because our first-past-the-post elections make a two-party system a mathematical certainty. If one of the major parties implodes, something else must take its place, and a faction among the other major party is much better equipped to attract the newly unaligned voters than third-party also-rans.
Manchin and the DINOs will go one way, AOC and The Squad go another. Party leadership will align with the former over the latter, so the Democrats become the new right-wing party. Whether the left-wing faction joins with the Green Party or the Greens become a faction of the new left party is a distinction without much difference.
Oh, you're saying that the Democrats fracturing is likely given the GOP's collapse. (I had thought you meant that it's more likely to collapse than the GOP.) Yes, that's certainly a possibility. The extreme flank of the Democrats and the moderate flank of the GOP uniting is likely, but this still provides us the opportunity that I'm hoping for. This scenario should result in a less powerful fascist faction, a more distinct progressive faction, and a more condensed conservative/neoliberal faction; fertile ground for progressives and leftist to grow our movement. Given the backlash against Trump and the loyalty of his remaining base I expect that if this happens the fascist faction will be locked in to supporting their own for a while, which will pull votes away from the neoliberal faction. Ideally, we'll see deep blue states turn green and red states start to turn blue.
So, don't vote for genocide. Vote for one of the anti-genocide candidates, like Jill Stein or Cornel West.
Might as well stay home and save myself the trouble of wasting my time. Third parties aren't viable in a first-past-the-post election system.
Yet voting 3rd party sends a signal that many are upset instead of apathetically staying at home. Silent consent is the very thing you accuse Democrats of in a sister thread.
Sounds like you want me to write in a vote for Literally Anyone Else, the Texan candidate who would make a perfect protest vote if he had even halfway decent politics.
No, I'm withdrawing my consent, for all the good that does in this abusive relationship between the state and its citizenry. If America was a real democracy then our poor turnout figures would invalidate every election back to the founding.
Yeah, it would be nice if our system allowed for withdrawing consent.
I don't see how that's consistent with your last sentence. But you do you I guess.
So you’re just throwing up your hand and giving up?
I gave up 14 years ago. American politics is rotten to the core and cannot be saved.
My only hope at this point is to keep as many people alive as possible through the troubles ahead.
In my state at least if a third party receives at least 5% of the vote they'll get significantly more funding in the next election cycle. Pretty sure that's true across the US.
You mean that thing that hasn't happened since Ross Perot in Texas 30 years ago?
Surely his Reform Party is still around after having their funding boosted, right? Nope, they dissolved in '97 after doing even worse at the polls in '96 than in '92.
That's simply not true. The Reform Party got Jesse Ventura elected governor of Minnesota in '98.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republican-state-representative-in-florida-calls-for-the-death-of-all-palestinians-during-a-call-for-ceasefire/ar-AA1jG00Z
I'm much less concerned about the hostility of those who openly demand genocide than the inaction of those who merely pretend to oppose it.
Strong "at least they're honest about it" energy
The worst thing I could wish for you as a person, is that this comment follows you around for the rest of your life.
The complaint is about duplicity, not an acceptance or exoneration of those who openly agitate for it.
An ‘ally’ who goes along to get along, but has a radically different value set is not an ally. “9 people sit a a table with a Nazi and say nothing - how many Nazis are at the table?” We decry the Russians who don’t speak out against Putin, but shuffle uncomfortably when the DNC’s top candidate is pursuing a path that enables atrocities?
It's a bullshit complaint for many reasons, but one of them is that they already stated that they won't participate in an easy activity to help mitigate genocide.
You misspelled "prolong".
When trans kids are being shoved into meat grinders I'll let them know that it's okay because you mastered the peak of internet wit.
I'm trans. My entire childhood and most of my adulthood was spent in a Texas meat grinder.
I tell you what, you hang around here and wait six months to vote against the meat grinders and I'll go back to doing something useful like helping people move from red states to sanctuary cities.
I'm glad that you're taking direct action and using your time to affect positive change. With that said, voting in Texas is particularly important, since the GOP's margin in the state has been thinning every year. Furthermore, if Trump gets elected, there's a decent chance that sanctuary cities could cease to be, and so I again encourage you to vote; it doesn't take very long and can make a literal world of difference. At the very least, you should stop discouraging other people from voting, because that runs counter to our shared stated goal, and is apparently wasting your precious time.
I strongly disagree. The focus on voting only serves as a distraction from the direct action necessary to effect political change under a dysfunctional regime.
And spending even more time arguing about it isn't a distraction because...
I'm procrastinating while stuck at work, what's your excuse?
I'd certainly hope so, as I was loosely paraphrasing Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter from Birmingham Jail":
In your mind, MLK was okay with the right kind of genocide?
Where did that come from? Of course not.
It's easy to know where one stands in relation to enemies. The same can't be said for false allies and fake friends like all the liberals who turn a blind eye to genocide when it's their guy enabling it.
Gives me an idea for a new meme to cover the other half:
"Leftists who won’t vote" 🤝 “Democrats” agree on being “apathetic”.