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"convicted of five murders in three states and is suspected in several more."
and:
"originally sentenced to death for the shooting deaths of John Wayne Bradford and Edward Thomas Arnold."
"in 1983, he was sentenced to death for the murder of David Dale Jensen, who was 22, disabled and serving time for a car theft when Creech beat him to death at the Idaho State Penitentiary on May 13, 1981."
"In addition to the Idaho murders, Creech has been convicted of killing both William Joseph Dean in Oregon and Vivian Grant Robinson in California in 1974. He was also charged with killing Sandra Jane Ramsamooj in Oregon that year, but the charge was later dropped in light of his other murder sentences.
In 1973, Creech was tried for the killing of 70-year-old Paul Schrader in Tucson, Arizona, but was acquitted of the crime. Authorities still believe him to be responsible for Schrader’s death, and say that Creech provided information that led them to bodies of two people near Las Vegas and one person near Baggs, Wyoming."
I'm of the opinion that the death penalty is not punitive, and it's not retributive. It's a way of telling another human being "there is no 'correcting' what you have done."
It needs to be reserved for the most monstrous of crimes and, in this case, 5 undisputed murders plus possibly 5 more? Pull the plug on this guy already. He's outstayed his welcome.
I dream of a future where we don't end people's lives, no matter what they've done. I believe that using the death penalty as a way to scare people into behaving ignores the real reasons why people do bad things in the first place. I also think that there are some people who, because of the way their brain works, can't be stopped by fear of punishment.
Looking at what Jesus, Buddha, or great thinkers like Marcus Aurelius said, they all teach us to be kind and understand that everyone deserves respect, even those who might seem broken or lost. To me, it feels wrong to use someone as a warning to others because it forgets that every person has value.
This is just how I see things, based on what I believe and what matters to me. I know it's a big, complicated topic, and not everyone will see it the same way.
When I was 12 I hid under the couch while my Grandpa brutally murdered my grandma overnight. Between around 11:00 pm and about 4:00am He hit her with with the coat tree, threw her down the stairs, whipped her with his belt until she bled, took her outside and tied her up behind his car and dragged her up and down the road before finally drowning her in a 5 gallon bucket of water. I was 12, and I watched.
For 22 years I went and fought his parole, every 5 years from the time I was 17 until I was 34 I had to go look that monster in the eye.
He swore if he ever got out he'd put the rest of the family in the ground too.
For 22 years I lived in constant, overbearing, fear of him doing the same things to me, my mom, my dad, my brother, and my cousins, that he did to my grandma that night.
The BIGGEST disservice ever done to my family by the state of Ohio is letting that horrible man live for 22 years. He should have been gassed on day 1.
And this is why victims do not get be the arbiters of justice, nor should they.
This is why we have judges and juries. But enforcing a death penalty generally causes more trauma than it serves justice.
This is why over 70% of the world’s countries have abolished or de facto abolished capital punishment. It doesn’t work, it doesn’t serve justice, and it only continues the cycle of violence.
Just to give you an idea of how backwards the United States is on this issue:
Since 1990, at least 11 countries have executed offenders who were minors (under the age of 18 or 21) at the time the crime was committed, which is a breach of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by all countries but the United States. These are: China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, South Sudan, Sudan, the United States, and Yemen.[11][12][13] In the United States, this ended in 2005 with the Supreme Court case Roper v. Simmons, in Nigeria in 2015 by a law,[14] and in Saudi Arabia in 2020 by royal decree.
Edit: I can’t claim to understand how you feel about your experience and what happened to you, which is why I didn’t address it. I hope that you and your loved ones have access to therapy and the ability to live your lives in peace.
This is why victims are not on the juries of their perpetrators. If we allow feelings and emotions to get in the way of a fair unbiased justice system, it’s not the way we should do things.
I am sorry for your story that is horrible. I have not had to deal with things like this and can't say with certainty how I'd react; so I'll let you to your opinion un-judged by me. I will consider your story in my perspective when I meditate on such things Chainweasel, honestly...
I do believe all peace is interconnected like a web, and even if you have 1 million murderers locked up forever, if they themselves don't have access to any peace or spiritual growth they will effect all of us, we are more than physical bodies and minds, we are sensitive emotional creatures.
Uh there's a lot to learn from Marcus Aurelius but I wouldn't look to him for unwavering compassion.
Agreed. Here is a relevant Marcus Quote for this disccussion " You should bear in mind constantly that death has come to men* of all kinds, men with varied occupations and various ethnicities… We too will inevitably end up where so many [of our heroes] have gone… Heraclitus, Pythagoras, Socrates… brilliant intellectuals, high-minded men, hard workers, men of ingenuity, self-confident men, men… who mocked the very transience and impermanence of human life…. men… long dead and buried… Only one thing is important: to behave throughout your life toward the liars and crooks around you with kindness, honesty, and justice. "
People here could argue that Justice is death for a death but that is a perspective worth arguing over I feel.
Is it really used as a warning though? I presume it's more like a statement of removing a constant danger from the population without keeping them permanently alone. To your point, if every person has value then you can't just lock up inveterate murderers with other prisoners and put those prisoners in potential mortal danger.
I'm not sure this is how the death penalty is used in practice since the appeals process is so long, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a punishment worse than perpetual solitude in a small concrete box until you naturally expire decades later with no hope of ever leaving.
I don't see it as a way of scaring people. I see it as telling a criminal "there's no coming back from what you did."
Some crimes are irredeemable, killing 5 people without question and arguably 5 more, all in separate incidents, falls under that.
Do you have any spiritual framework you draw this from? Where did you learn that there are things to which a sentient being can not come back from? I understand we have different perspectives now I'd like to see what our differing principals or values may be that allow us different thoughts.
Nope, it comes from having seen monsters.
Don't waste the time on them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Weaver_III
The list goes on. Some crimes are beyond a "correctional institute".
Lets explore how we got to different places.
We know things three ways I see. We know how to breath by just "knowing" like a bird knows to make a nest. We know by "experience" like touching a hot stove will burn. We know by "reasoning" such as this other thing cooks and looks hot it will burn me too.
Your experience of seeing monsters lead you to reason there is no value or redemption. Is this correct Call out if I'm wrong...
My knowing comes from just knowing which was cultivated through spiritual pursuits amd mediation. I could try and further explain but I'd need to present full Buddhist perspective.
Very different knowledge we have. It would be hard to talk on this issue, none of my spiritual explanations couldn't find soil in your non spiritual framework and I've not experienced monsters like you and hence lack experience to relate well.
Not experiencing monsters is a GOOD thing. It's inherently good that you have a more innocent perspective than I do. Please don't lose that. :)
Putting him to death at 73, over 3 decades after being sentenced, can only be explained as retribution. It isn't like he is going to learn anything when he is dead.
Dude's a psychopath, save the energy for innocent people.
If we could tell for certain who was innocent or who was guilty, there might be an argument for the death penalty (although I still say that the state having the power over life and death is immoral and unethical)... but until that day, saying that someone should be subject to an unjust law because of their heinous crime is not really an equitable way of thinking about how this country should work.
And then there's the huge racial disparity.
https://www.nacdl.org/Content/Race-and-the-Death-Penalty
I realize he's as horrible as a person could be and his crime was atrocious. But that doesn't mean we should apply a law to him that is simply not evenly applied and where innocent people are given a punishment that they cannot survive. Either laws should be fair and applied fairly or they should not be laws. Wouldn't you agree?
Oh, there's absolutely no doubt that the death penalty is over-used, mis-applied, and in many cases outright racist, but I don't see that as an argument to eliminate it, it's an argument to correct it.
And, yeah, we absolutely can determine when someone is guilty.
Poster children for the death penalty:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Weaver_III
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer
Again, I do not deny that there have been absolutely horrible crimes committed and those people were then executed. But that does not make the law fair or equitable and unfair and non-equitable laws are simply immoral in my opinion.
If you want to argue for death penalty reform, that's fine. But why should anyone be put to death while the law is unevenly applied?
Clearly, there was no rush in this case. So reform the law first.
In clear cases, I don't see the need for delay. They catch you with bodies or body parts on your property or in your house? Yeeeaaahhh...
But you're right, if something is a "simple" murder case, go ahead and hold off until things can get corrected. Ideally, it wouldn't be applied in simple murders.
Can we at least agree its is right for us to allow them maximal spiritual growth before sending them on their way? Prison reform would be a very multifaceted thing beyond my intelligence alone to think up.
My belief is your death conditions are correlated to your birth conditions (karma). This is a very common worldly belief mind you. That said, we all want a future with peace and love, and letting people die in fear and anguish will only allow their future conditions to bring that fear and anguish back. I know not everyone will believe this but I swear its worth exploring.
Did they allow their victims "maximum spiritual growth"? No? Then I doubt they deserve the same courtesy.
Grace and mercy my friend. They transcend hate if you let it.
Sure, but what does executing him accomplish?
Stops him from killing more people in jail line the one he beat to death while avoiding the torture of permanent solitary confinement? At least that's the justification I would use if he's been years or decades alone. If that's not the case yeah it kinda seems like retribution.
Sounds like his behavior has changed over the decades, and of course the prosecutor is going to describe him in the worse possible way as that is their job. If he hasn't been violent in jail for decades, killing him at this point does not accomplish anything at all even if he is just pretending to be good. The alternative being pushed for was life in prison.
It tells him "better luck next time."
I originally upvoted you, but then I took a moment to read your comment more closely.
No. Being convicted of 5 murders does not mean 5 undisputed murders. The primary argument against the death penalty is based on how often we incarcerate innocent or even insufficiently proven guilty people and then the only recourse is letting them out, since we have no recourse after wrongfully executing someone. Portraying the 5 murders he was convicted of as "undisputed" wilfully ignores the single biggest problem with the death penalty.