this post was submitted on 13 Feb 2024
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[–] [email protected] 72 points 10 months ago (6 children)

As an American: I'm really sorry if we infected you with this particular brand of idiocy. If only there were a vaccine...

Someone's going to reply: education is, but I offer PragerU as counter-evidence. There's a quality scale in education, as well.

[–] Wogi 30 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Prager u isn't education, it's propaganda.

[–] Chocrates 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You have to either watch them and think critically about the content or be "in the know" through our various lefty podcasters and what not though. Prager U does a decent job of hiding that it is propaganda imo. Though I don't know that I have ever watch a full video myself.

[–] Wogi 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Years ago, I would keep YouTube playing constantly while I was at work and caught a handful of Prager u videos randomly, and this was well before I was the radical leftist I am now, they still rubbed me the wrong way. They did a great job making an argument that was fundamentally wrong but they'd always fail to explain an important mechanism for something critical. I can't think of any specific examples, I haven't actually watched one of their videos since I left that job. But it was always a huge leap that they disguised as a given fact. They're also just straight up lie about historical facts.

[–] Chocrates 3 points 10 months ago

That's the problem right!? It takes no effort to lie but we have spill gallons of ink to fact check them.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The best propaganda is simply the slice of truth you choose to show that supports your original claims.

It is trivially easy to dig up instances of this or that medication having complications or side-effects. And I'll openly admit that COVID boosters still leave me feeling like shit for a day afterwards. So folks at Praeger can pull together an assortment of anecdotes and testimonials to build an anti-vax case that is entirely "true" while still being complete bullshit by way of omission.

That's where the whole "getting educated" stuff is a double-edged sword. You can very easily feel well-informed based on the volume of information - true, legitimate, seriously sourced information, confirmable facts - you've ingested, and still be lead to some utterly false conclusions.

You can play this game with Tylenol or Chemotherapy or Dialysis as easily as any vaccine. And I do get the sense that, as the UK moves towards divesting itself of a health care infrastructure because shit costs money, we're going to get more and more of this kind of "Don't even bother going to a doctor, they'll kill you!" medical denialism as a kind-of coping mechanism for a health care system that's been defunded to the point of uselessness.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It is trivially easy to dig up instances of this or that medication having complications or side-effects.

The problem is that when this evidence is mildly negative against vaccination (e.g. myocardial cases in young males) it is denied rather than debated.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

myocardial cases in young males

26.7 out of 100,000 cases after the second vaccine dose

Like, on the one end, this is exactly the kind of shit that gets hyper-inflated. The mortality rate of COVID is closer to 2000 cases in 100k than 26.7. And contraction of COVID raises long term risk of heart issues as a consequence. The herd immunity to grants means that, if you can successfully identify high risk individuals, they're insulated from transmission by the bulk of the population getting vaccinated. So the fear of heart issues is mitigated only when everyone else gets the jab.

On the other, I think there's a criticism that we haven't continued to invest in improvements to the mRNA treatment now that we have a simple panacea. And this doesn't become criticism of vaccination. It becomes a criticism of vaccine skepticism undermining funding of new iterations of the treatment.

it is denied rather than debated

At some point, you can't keep coming back to the debate table in the middle of a pandemic. You need to move quickly and confidently, rather than re-litigating age old talking points if you want to minimize total public harm.

That might mean ramping up vaccine distribution. It might mean ramping up quarantine measures. It might mean dramatically expanding the availability of testing and contact tracing and improving access to public health care.

But when we've embraced a "cheapest, least economically invasive solution" policy method, that means we're fully on board with the vaccine whether its entirely safe or not. Because what we really care for, in the US, is economic growth. And a jab from even a mediocre vaccine solution is going to be vastly more friendly to the economy than doing nothing or doing a more traditional quarantine approach.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The mortality rate of COVID is closer to 2000 cases in 100k than 26.7.

Ok. So my post was bait. I specifically chose a statistic of young males and myocarditis.

As expected you misread and responded quoting all age mortality.

This was the point I was trying to make. Honest discussions are impossible.

contraction of COVID raises long term risk of heart issues

Above a certain age, yes.

Your link is not focused on young males.
In the specific case of myocarditis in young males, the Pfizer vaccine is higher risk.

The herd immunity to grants means that, if you can successfully identify high risk individuals, they're insulated from transmission by the bulk of the population getting vaccinated.

True for vaccines in general, but for omicron (the dominant strain when most vaccines were given) transmission rates immediately after infection were the same, whether vaccinated or not.

So the fear of heart issues is mitigated only when everyone else gets the jab.

Not empirically true for covid vaccines

On the other, I think there's a criticism that we haven't continued to invest in improvements to the mRNA treatment now that we have a simple panacea.

Disagree. mRNA is now an accepted tool and is being explored for a huge number of medical applications.

you can't keep coming back to the debate table in the middle of a pandemic.

There was no debate during the pandemic. Any criticism was silenced as being anti vaccine.

You need to move quickly and confidently,

In public. But this shouldn't apply to doctors, scientists and other experts.

But when we've embraced a "cheapest, least economically invasive solution" policy method,

Cheapest would have been open sourcing the Oxford vaccine. Bill Gates stopped that from happening. "As a CEPI founder he had leverage"

Because what we really care for, in the US, is economic growth.

Yes. There is no money in an open source, cost of production vaccine, but there is a LOT of money in future mRNA applications.

EDIT: Links added.

[–] Shou 16 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Don't worry. My country's bible belt has been used in epidemic studies for measles long ago. It's not just 'Murica.

[–] Tyfud 8 points 10 months ago

Now I'm curious where the Bible belt is in your country

[–] derf82 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I’m fairness, Andrew Wakefield is British.

[–] Shapillon 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Hi fairness \o

Is it a typo or a boneappletea moment?

[–] derf82 1 points 10 months ago

Autocorrect. Darn m and n are too close

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago

Oh no mate, this is all our own madness.

[–] A_Random_Idiot 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I frequently have youtube up on my TV for background noise.

PragerU and those AI generated ads talking about free money are things I see far to frequently, and make me far too irrationally angry.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

Honestly, when it comes to Prager (no U because it is not an academic institution), I don't think that's irrational anger.

[–] afraid_of_zombies 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Call them and yell at them. It will make you feel better

[–] A_Random_Idiot 3 points 10 months ago

Nah, my phone raging is reserved for one very special group of worthless, miserable wastes of existences whom I would love to do actual, physical violence too.

[–] mods_are_assholes 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

ublock origin and blocktube, take control of your experience.

[–] A_Random_Idiot 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Which I cant use on xbox, which I use to put it on TV.

[–] mods_are_assholes 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

That is a very valid point. Then might I suggest a pihole?

[–] A_Random_Idiot 2 points 10 months ago

As soon as Pis stop being stupid priced.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'd honestly be surprised if the whole concept doesn't predate the US as a country.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I mean the methods to immunize someone was very crude and the entire concept so new that I really don't think you can compare that to anti-vaxxers nowadays. We've got much bigger idiots now.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Oh, I'm talking about the sovereign citizen nonsense, which I gathered from the "I arrested the police" bits.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Theoretically possible to do a citizen's arrest on the police- in practice, not a chance.