There's this rising narrative going around that if you ask specifically for a CIS partner, you're a transphobe. That could be true for some people but it's not fundamentally related to bigotry. Moreover, this narrative, the "if you only want a CIS mate then that is prejudice" is trampling on one of the most important rights a person can have: the right to choose who they want to get intimate with.
First of all, transmen are in fact men and transwomen are in fact women. Let's get that out of the way. This isn't a foot in the door for "trans this really isn't that" narratives. What this is about it is the freedom to choose who you want to be intimate with. That right is sancrosanct, it is absolutely inviolable.
And yes, there's plenty of issues that make transgender dating a special issue. If someone reveals their TG status they can be open to hate crimes and even deadly violence. However all marginalized groups are special in their own way. As a black man I don't think it's racist if a woman says she doesn't want to date a black man. I face oppression, too. My class is special in its own way. One group isn't more special than the other. None of us have the right to force ourselves upon those who don't want to be intimate with us, even by omitting who we really are.
Really, if you have to deceive or hide who you are in order to date someone, do you really want to date them? I wouldn't. That's not fair to you and you're denying them their right to choose who they want. What do you think will happen when the person wants a CIS mate and they discover the truth? They're going to get pissed and dump you. Now you have to shame them into staying with you: "If you loved me for real this wouldn't bother you"... that's not going to convince anyone. They're either going to leave, or they'll resent you forever. That's just how it is. You can be mad at that but that's about as effective as protesting the rising of the sun. There's just no way to win once you've gone down that road.
"I want a CIS mate" is not the same as "trans women are not women" - one is a preference, the other is harmful prejudice. On the flip side CIS people who do date trans people shouldn't be shamed for their choices either. A man should be free to date a trans woman and not catch flak about it. Trans people should be able to be openly trans and not face hate speech or threats to their well-being. This, without any exception whatsoever.
The fundamental fact is when you shame or worse abrogate people's right to choose who they want to get intimate with, it's not going to end well for you. All you're going to get is people who resent being coerced or bullied to date people they don't want to. And that's not something the country, or the world, will ever put up with. Except that right now, most people don't imagine they can be labeled a transphobe just for wanting a CIS mate. And unpopular opinion: that should be nipped in the bud.
on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.
real talk though, no one should be deceiving anyone if they plan to start a healthy relationship with someone, period.
I'm stealth trans in public and don't feel it's necessary to come out to every one i meet or even work with. But if I'm flirting with someone or know someone has an interest in me, I respect them enough to let them know.
it all comes back to the idea that you don't need to know what someone's genitals look like unless you plan on fucking them.
I think I that's a concept that cis straight people don't get. You don't come out once. You have a big coming out, once, to friends and family. Then every new person you meet, you decide whether to tell them outright, whether to subtly tell them, or whether you don't tell them. Each time, you're considering if you'll meet them again, if it serves a purposes of it feels like hiding, your safety, whether it will affect their opinion of you and so be to your disadvantage etc. It's tiring.
I have a pretty small sample size, but it feels like the next generation doesn't feel that way. My 13-year-old daughter is queer and so are some of her friends and it doesn't occur to them most of the time that her peers might judge them for it. We did have to take my daughter out of school for severe bullying- because they were calling her a furry (she committed the sin of wearing spiked collars) and spreading rumors that she was racist. She got nothing for being queer.
She's doing an English project right now and she had to pick an event from history and talk about how it impacted today and I suggested Stonewall. She was pretty baffled about the whole thing. She understood conceptually that being queer was so hated and so dangerous in the 1960s, but she really had no idea.
I told her yesterday about how, even when I was in middle school in 1989-1991, there were no kids out of the closet. When I got to high school, there were a handful of very brave kids who were out and they got beaten up a lot. There was one trans girl and that was because she could pass and didn't let most people know. Same-gendered couples were not allowed at prom. Even kids (and teachers who could get fired for it) who were undeniably queer hid it from everyone. Two people in my friend circle who were so gay they were on fire didn't admit it until college. Both times, it was a "well, duh" moment when they came out, but that's how scared they were to come out.
And, of course, if they did come out, they couldn't get married if they found someone they loved.
She doesn't know how bad it all was even when I was a kid and I'm so glad of that. I just hope Trump doesn't turn it all around.
Is it not more tiring to come out to someone you're more emotionally invested in, though?
There's obviously the safety issues that the OP mentioned, but wouldn't it be easier to not have to deal with an eventual reveal?
Why invest the time and energy into someone who has that much higher a chance that they'll deny you when you come out?
Yes, but then you would have to come out to everyone first time.
Hi, here's your coffee. Thanks, I'm trans.
Hi X, meet my friend Y. Hi Y, I'm gay, my name is X, nice to meet you. Umm, I'm not sure I needed to know that.
What about a work colleague that you can't avoid but they are new and you don't know how they will react.
That's the point. The big coming out is for people you are emotionally invested in at that point in time. Then you have to make snap decisions and considered decisions for every new person forever.
IMHO a work colleague, etc. has no business knowing if you're LGBTQ. Only ever a potential dating partner.
If telling a potential dating partner about your LGBTQ status is tiring and awkward then IMHO it is fully our bleeping fault as a society, not the LGBTQ's person's fault. Society needs to work hard to correct that and I am 100% here for that. Though to be honest IMO the only time you ever (the word 'ever' in this case should be on a Times Square billboard in glowing lights) need to come out as LGBTQ is in a dating situation.
But now everyone should be free to live openly as LGBTQ anyway. They shouldn't have to "come out". I don't have to come out as cishetero in life. If I were single I'd identify as cishetero just so a LGBTQ person who doesn't want to date cishetero can swipe right by me on their way to someone they want, and I'm okay with that. I'd also identify as black and 5'11 so people who don't want to date black men or men under 6'2 can swipe by. Fine by me. If LGBTQ can't identify openly that's our fault, not theirs.
Why can't a work colleague be a potential dating partner? That's the point the person you were replying to was making. You don't know who is going to be a common part of your life.
Because the Internet collectively decided that you shouldn't dip your pen in company ink, so to speak. People are bad at communicating and breakups and some would rather quit their job than work alongside an ex every day, so they won't risk dating a co-worker.
So, how do you talk about your life at work. Do you keep quiet about your husband, as a wife is expected? If there is a social function, do you decline to go? Life is messier than that. Sometime work colleagues become friends. Knowing of someone is lgbtqi+ isn’t just about their sexuality, it’s about their lived experience.
I completely agree, it is society that is not fully mature about these issues yet, which for someone who’s been dealing with them all their life, for 20, 40, 60 years is tiring. It’s not that your boss is homophobic. It’s that you don’t know and they might be. So you edit yourself. Constantly. Some choose not to but it can be risky, or others can’t as it’s more obvious.
Saying it is society at fault, or the other person doesn’t make that an easier experience for lgbtqi people. Certainly, in dating, people should know anything that they may be averse to. That may include someone’s trans status. Does it include their sexuality? Does a bisexual person have to disclose that before intimacy with a person of the opposite sex?
It’s a murky subject. If society was accepting, I don’t think it would be fair to not disclose, but if society was accepting, there would be no need to disclose. It’s a catch 22.
Yes, absolutely, I mentioned that part already. Freedom goes both ways. No one should be shamed for choosing to date a trans partner.
Chasers suck for trans people big time. This is a logical fallacy. It's different if a trans person says they're only doing T4T to a cis person.
Can you elaborate on this? Is it the usual fetishism (similar to what Asian women often experience) or is it different?
You got me laughing and thinking at once.
Just married my Filipina. First Asian I ever dated. Didn't seek Asian women, had zero expectations.
I know a lot of guys want a tiny, submissive, tradwife (fuck me I loathe that word). "Ew, gross! Not me, not EVER!", I thought. Well... here we are.
She had me watching Filipina videos last month, to help me understand what Filipina women want, help me understand her culture. "Old white guys?! Hell fucking yes all day long!", is what I got out of it.
"So what I gather is that I can go to the Philippines and trade you in on a hot 19-yo that will worship the ground I walk on?" 🤣
She's said, straight up, that she always wanted a white American. She was also so she was afraid I was fetishizing her as an "exotic" Asian. Go figure. 🤷🏻♂️
It's been a very strange, and lovely, experience. I'm trying to help her be more independent, show her that we're equals, financially and emotionally. Sometimes it's a challenge.
Yes, I can feed myself and wash my own clothes, back off a bit. But she feels like it's her role to provide, and I'm taking from her by not taking from her. Fuck me, I've dated Mississippi girls that could strap on a ball gown, get their makeup game on, change their oil and shoot like Annie Oakly. This is all new to me.
Sorry. I don't have anyone else to talk about this with and your comment got me thinking. And laughing at how strange life sometimes turns out.
I think your gut feeling is correct, you were in fact being fetishized by the videos that she showed you. I have known Asian women who get red in the face at the whole "I love white guys" thing. I know white men who cringe at other white men and their obsession with Asian women. Fetishization is coming from both sides.
Glad that you feel able to open up here. I hope you and anyone else who stays open and tolerant to new ideas will have a safe space here.
Is it always cringe/disrespectful when someone has something about them that I love more than other people love and I tell them that?
I would say the same, more wanting us for sexual reasons then as a partner.
I don't really know, but those people aren't interested in the person happen to be trans. Trans people are not responsible for cross dressing fetishes. Those people might also try to form trans people in their preferred image, I think this is called bimbofication for trans women/trans feminine people.
That last sentence really hit the nail on the head.
Eh, either or. Depends on user experience and if "What do you want" is going to take less time to fill than "What don't you want". But there should definitely be something ensuring people's time isn't wasted or feelings hurt because sexual preferences aren't equally considered.