this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2023
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Big brain tech dude got yet another clueless take over at HackerNews etc? Here's the place to vent. Orange site, VC foolishness, all welcome.
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Wait, I've been out for a bit - what was the actual consensus on Covid? I genuinely thought there was a Wuhan Lab that this all originated from?
I'm not a nut job, I can be reasoned with, i just need to update my beliefs with new info
I believe the scientific consensus is that it originated in a wet market in Wuhan.
The "lab leak theory", while not impossible, is also shorthand for a morass of conspiracy theories grounded in racist attitudes towards China. It somehow conflates that the pandemic is China's fault, if not an outright attack from China, while simultaneously downplaying any efforts to mitigate such an attack.
The racist connotations about the lab I knew about, but I didn't think it made it less true.
That being said, I just checked wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_COVID-19
and I think I remember seeing a study that showed the similarity of the sequence to other known sequences and it wasn't that dramatic a change.
this is an absolute fuck of a sentence and seeing as how you keep JAQing off in a way that platforms conspiracy bullshit, you can just fuck off too
In the absence of any actual evidence, it does make it less true. Believing otherwise means ignoring all the obvious (but admittedly circumstantial) evidence that racism is super-fucking-popular. So Occam's Razor says if two theories have equal levels of zero evidence and one is inherently appealing to lizard brain, that one will gain prevalence so if you want to correct for that bias you have to bias in the opposite direction. How hard? Roll dice.
Just because since bigots blame China, doesn't prove their innocence.
But would the world Powers have said something if it was an escaped virus out of the Chinese Lab in Wuhan?
I don't think it's a coincidence that the wet market is 20 mins from a lab working on bats and viruses.
You have a global Pandemic, but also a big part of the population wants revenge because the Chinese can't keep their lab viruses contained and killed grandma with covid, quite a spicy meatball there.
Of course the labs location isn't a coincidence. They built the lab that studies corona viruses near a huge natural reserve of bats infected with corona viruses.
duh, duh duh, duh, duuuuuuuuuh, yup.
Well maybe they shouldn't have, you know, in case there's a lab leak. Not saying there was, just saying that these virology labs scare me
A shockingly large portion of the population is dumb and refuses to listen to reality, so it's no surprise they believe in a big bad ruining their 2020s and killing grandma rather than just dumb bad luck with a new virus.
Let's also not forget that we also had a large amount of people who refused to do basic COVID prevention techniques like masking, so I'm betting the venn diagram here is pretty close to a circle...
I don't understand why that's considered racist? Why is a conspiracy theory that China has a world class biolab capable of a global pandemic racist?
A crazy conspiracy that a foreign power has biotech superiority isn't racism.
go figure out how racism works elsewhere
Diluting the meaning of words is a huge problem for society. Labeling anything you don't like as racist is the same tactic used by Magas when they label everything they don't like as insurrection.
You are enabling actual systemic racism.
I guess most people aren't up to date with this subject. There has been plenty of discussion with experts that point to the possibility of a lab leak. The wet market hypothesis has so many holes in it that it's impossible to take seriously.
Such as?
Trust me bro! Idk lol
That kind of comment is useless. Huge claim, zero follow-through. There may well be a workable theory, but that poster has no fucking clue.
Simply, Coronavirus is airborne, not transmitted through surfaces or dead meat. While one of the first persons may have been in the wetmarket but it is highly unlikely that it's where it originated. Chinese government also had heavy oversight over the investigation and did not allow investigations to go beyond the wetmarket. The narrative of the wetmarket was never scientifically verified, it was just something that was published in the early days of the pandemic and taken as fact. The only american allowed into the investigation had a serious conflict of interest with his stake in research in the Wuhan virology lab and was the person who pushed through the wetmarket hypothesis and politically assisnated any scientist that brought up the possibility of a lab leak (even just to discuss). There were more problematic things revolving this person including rejected research proposals in the US with DARPA related to gain of function with coronavirus (there is more there than im saying). In wuhan, the closest bats with this virus live 100s of miles away from the city, there were no cases of this virus seen in the countryside in the early days. The Wuhan lab had a library of coronavirus genomes, 3 years later they still haven't published it. This would help pinpoint the origin of the virus.
It's been a couple years since I dove into this, but there is way more. Especially on the side of the Wuhan virologylab. Point is, we can't say it's from a wetmarket any more than it's from a lableak. The Chinese government hasn't been cooperative in the investigation so well never be able to draw solid conclusions.
The market where it's believed to have originated kept live animals. It's never been claimed that the initial infection was via "dead meat" or from a contaminated surface.
There is an institute of virology in Wuhan, but it is most likely that Covid-19 spread naturally from bats to humans.
Bat coronaviruses are common in the South China - Thailand - Myanmar region, and viruses jump host species all the time.
Labs that handle human pathogens are maintained under very high security. The one in Wuhan is BSL4, the highest security rating, and had prior experience handling coronaviruses. Also, the viruses themselves would be marked with radioactive isotopes. Even if they somehow got out of the building, it would be possible to find and quarantine all those exposed to it.
If it was released on purpose, then we can narrow the list of suspects down to the countries that can reliably make bioweapons and antidotes with close to 100% certainty. That's the US, China and maybe Russia. The US and Russia were among the worst affected, and China wouldn't have released the virus in China.
So the most likely explanation is that it is a bat virus that jumped hosts.
Is that true? Once the virus replicated in a cell, the new copies wouldn't be tagged, right?
The new ones wouldn't. But the original radioactive atoms would still be in your body, and they can be detected (within a reasonable amount of time).
Edit: But if the new viruses infect another person, they wouldn't have the radioactivity. So usually, in case of a leak, the plan would be to quarantine anyone exposed to the viruses (as detected by radioactivity) and anyone who has been with them that day.
For the lab leak theory to work you have to assume not only that some workers at the lab got infected, but also that they spread it all over the city before anybody noticed, such that by the time anyone did notice, they were several degrees of contact from the lab workers.
@emergencyfood @Evinceo Naw. People have some radioactive atoms in their bodies all the time. But the viruses are marked in another way: they have particular genetic sequences. And with the march of technology the Wuhan Institute of Virology would have sequenced the viruses they were studying and been able to compare the sequences on file with the Covid-19 pathogen.
You don't know that. Nobody knows that, because China destroyed all the evidence. If this was true, they could have proved it, they could have shown the world! "Behold our innocence!!" Why didn't that happen?
One (simpler) explanation is that proving an absence of something is almost impossible, and that attempting too hard would make them look a heck of a lot guilty.
There is a good reason why the burden of evidence is “innocent until proven guilty”, and yes this extends to the (in your eyes) untrustworthy.
Prove to me you never stole candy from a store as a child (or if you did, replace that accusation with any item of higher value until you hit something you did not steal)
There is also the whole 'why would we have to prove anything? We are fucking China!' stance all big hegemonic countries have.
It's not just big hegemonic countries in general but specifically the particularly image-obsessed character of geopolitics in East Asia. Mianzi is a real concern in Chinese diplomacy.
lmao, if you don't have evidence for X, you don't have evidence that X is being suppressed. You just lack evidence.
The communities pushing "COVID was a lab leak" the hardest are demonstrably not cured by evidence.
nope fuck off
Yes, but we can reason based on what we know.
Most likely the municipality were trying to cover up corruption in the regulation of the wet markets. Maybe they ignored health and safety laws in return for bribes, and didn't want that to come out.
In come the posters who never posted here before to explain that the leak theory is true!
While I have no real input re the whole lab leak conspiracy theory, I do have a fun anacdote from then. I remember pretty quickly after the lab leak option was dropped somebody came with proof for it saying 'we have the telephone data, and the day virus started all the telephones from the lab stayed in one place clearly manipulated!'. This story has a few holes, note first the whole 'we have the telephone data' which is already weird (esp as china refused to cooperate), then also we don't have just one day, perhaps this behavior of phones in a lab is normal. Almost like people are forced to put their personal phones in storage when they suit up (iirc often standard practice in those kinds of rooms). Of course the person bringing up the phones theory didn't think about this. I knew we were in for a wild ride of conspiracies after that one, as it was 'throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks' contrarian theories land. (a thing you often see after a tragedy happens, extremely common in far right circles when the far right does an atrocity, where it is often sort of ingroup signal and signal of cruelty). Anyway, that is just an interesting thing I remembered which I wanted to share, on the subject at hand my opinion is I doubt it was a lab leak, but I also don't think we will ever know for sure, and also we will never find enough evidence that it wasn't a lab leak to convince the people who convinced themselves it was one.
I'm on your page at least - best evidence we had was that it leaked from a Wuhan lab.
Not sure what the conspiracy here is, other than "Rich man has thoughts that come close to an opinion on vaccines. Get the pitchforks!"
Missing the forest for the trees, it feels like - The man has a good point about synthetic viruses.
Check my comment above. More scientists believe it was due to a random mutation (the similarity of the sequence to other bat coronaviruses was extremely similar, and this one was a small change that just happened to be potent), though there are also many scientists who find the wuhan lab more than circumstantial.
What
They're lemmy.ml users, best course of action is to just ignore and move on.
Thx, I'm kinda new to the lemmyverse so I haven't really figured out who is worth listening and replying to.
https://awful.systems/comment/220469
I'm sad nobody posted Good News, They Let Dumb Sluts into Mensa Now (also in podcast longform) in reaction to that user mentioning Mensa.
Such a good podcast series, highly recommended.
synthetic virus bad
Im sorry, this is an anti-memetic zone. You seem to have used a thought ending memetic sentence, please report to the blue room for punishment. You are to sit in the black chair. Your social standing has decreased.
This is an automated message, further replies to this message can and will increase the severity of your punishment. They also will be ignored.
worse than your posting?