this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023
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Really makes you think about why Hamas is so radicalized, doesn't it? It's not like you can pull a Muslim out of a hat and radicalize them. People in a stable, healthy, and fair socioeconomic position do not see violence as an answer. People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
And the irony is that Israel allowed Hamas to be funded by Arabic countries 25 years ago when it was a way to weaken Arafat and the PLO. Everything in this area is fucked beyond parody. No authority on either side has any idea about morality.
Netanyahu actually said something very similar, that the best way to destabilise the Palestinian Authority was to finance Hamas.
The same parallels with how the US funded what would later become Al Qaeda to fuck with the Soviets. Then they did 9/11.
The mujahideen fighters, yeah.
Go Reagan! /s
You called ? 🥸
It's not ironic at all. Arafat and the PLO were TERRORISTS with no interest in peace whatsoever, and who had a stranglehold on all political power.
It's not like Israel had a non-terrorist faction to work with.
I wish things were that simple.
Uh... UH.... UH...... How do you think the Oslo accords happened?
You're describing roughly half the planet
They arent justifying hamas, they are highlighting how israel actively created the environment that gave hamas the capability to do this.
I've seen non-stop justification of Hamas in these threads. "Terrorism is inexcusable, BUT" and then they explain why they are excusing it.
Maybe you need better reading comp lessons?
Those "buts" are because while hamas is at fault, they are not the only ones at fault. Without that but, israel would be posed as the sad victim. They are equally guilty of this terror attack.
They created hamas. The only victims here are the festival goers, and the palestinian civilians that israel will kill using hamas as a justification.
Hamas isnt being excused. Its being contexualized.
Say that to Israel. The average age of the population in Gaza is 18. Unless there was a population boom of unprecedented proportions 18 years ago. (There wasn't) Something seriously wrong is going on.
I don't support Hamas's attack. But Israel isn't the victim. The people of Palestine and even Israel are the victims. And ultimately, the government of Israel is the aggressor. They could stop this. But they don't. They just make excuses and dehumanize the Palestinians. Then act surprised when they get the response they want.
Of note: The blockade of Gaza is going on for a good 16 years, now. About half of Gazans grew up under that regime and they're just about reaching fighting age now, already having gone through "what might I possibly be in the future" age and, well, there's not exactly many options are there.
Exactly. Regardless of who started this. At some point someone's going to have to be the bigger person. And unfortunately that can literally only be israel. And they are absolutely refusing. No matter how good or bad people in guys that are Palestinians in general behave. They are just counted phones to Israel and many other Middle Eastern powers.
No. They really don't. It's pretty fucked up what Hamas just did. But it didn't come from a vacuum. Those people and their families have lived there for centuries. Before a bunch of Western powers came in occupied, and then decided to kick them out of their own territories. Off their own lands. Give it to people who hadn't been there in living memory at the very best. Violence begets violence and it's been that way ever since the start of this situation. Unfortunately however. Israel is going to have to be the bigger person here. Because they're not the ones trapped in a blockade of Israel's design with the help of other Middle Eastern Nations.
More like 100 years. The british began mass immigrating Jews to Israel back in 1923.
"I don't think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But"
"But"
Dude, you're doing it right now.
Wow! Amazing, you got me! I totally conflated historical perspective and ethical viewpoint, I am owned.
I don't know many countries that aren't proud of a revolutionary war they had in the past. I don't like the bloodbaths caused by the French Revolution, the American revolutionary war, English civil war, Garibaldi, Zapata. I could go and on. Yet, we manage to rationalise them and to put them into perspective, explaining that the population arrived at a point where they couldn't tolerate oppression anymore. It explains the violence, it doesn't justify it morally.
You might find participating in these conversations more fruitful if you took time to understand the difference between justification and understanding. I can say that I understand how someone might get enraged and do crazy shit and still condemn the act.
That's a justification. Giving reason to why is justifying that thing.
It is not. Justifying means to judge or regard something as righteous. Giving reason means explaining a possible cause to an effect. Not all reasons are justified. Saying "he probably punched you because you accidentally insulted his brother" does not imply "and he's justified in doing so". There's a distinct difference in understanding possible causes for an effect and condoning them. Also, it's vitally important to try to understand situations to have any hope in fixing them. Without understanding you end up with black and white thinking with no compromises or solutions.
I don't think justification is only about righteousness. Justifying an action is finding reason for why that action occurred. That can include giving reason why its righteousness. But it also includes giving reason why it happened.
So for me, I don't care the reason because to me there is no reason that can justify it. To me it is beyond reasonable. I recognize there's history. But I am saying that history does not justify the action. I don't empathize with a group that takes this action.
I understand you are not agreeing with what happened. But you are giving a reason and giving reason is a form of empathy and the context you provided is what I would consider justification.
Well, it's in the term: justify, to show something is just. It has value assessment. Anyway, you're right, I'm not agreeing with what happened. But I also think that in general if we don't try to understand reasons, no matter how abhorrent we find them, how do we prevent such things from happening again?
I'm tired of seeing people being labeled as good or evil or whatever and that being used as the reasoning why someone behaved the way they did. We can understand situations, conditions and human psychology better than that and we should try to understand why horrible things happen. This applies to murder, abuse, any kind of violence, including the topic at hand. Only if we begin to understand the underlying reasons can we become proactive instead of reactive. I see it as a way to prevent further suffering and loss of lives, not a justification.
Anyway, if you find it emotionally too taxing, I can understand that. But I hope you can see that not everyone trying to understand the reasons is trying to justify it.
Are you talking about Israel or Hamas? Because they've both killed a lot of civilians. Israel has actually killed more.
You must have missed Israel's response. They've bombed the shit out of the Gaza strip, neighborhood by neighborhood. And they've cut them off from food, water, electricity, and oil. Israel is literally trying to starve out the entire population of Gaza.
Maybe it was lost in the way I said it. But my intention is that I'm pissed off anyone targets civilians.
Source BBC News on the hostage situation "The focus appears to be on a swap involving women and children - including Israelis and other nationals - in an exchange for Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails."
Thank you for stating the obvious.
Take a second and just breathe. Relax. It's going to be ok.
This is the second thread I've seen today with your awful takes. Probably worth a block, but I don't believe in it. Just know that you're super fucking wrong.
Because one side uses civilians as meat shields like cowards and the other side doesn't.
Social media is full of people saying "terrorism is inexcusable, BUT ..." and then going on to excuse terrorism happening to the Jews in Israel.