this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
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[–] mo_ztt 188 points 1 year ago (6 children)

“American democracy simply cannot function without two equally healthy and equally strong political parties,” J Michael Luttig told CNN on Wednesday. “So today, in my view, there is no Republican party to counter the Democratic party in the country.

“And for that reason, American democracy is in grave peril.”

For that reason?

That's the reason?

[–] [email protected] 80 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I think the real reason is that the people in power keep touting this idea of only two distinct parties. Having only two parties means you have only two directions to go. Which is destined for extremism.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The FPTP voting system reinforces that. Any third party is just going to be a spoiler for one of the majors without voting system reform.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

This is the correct answer. Third parties are rarely viable in first-past-the-post systems. More info on Duverger's Law here.

If we had more viable parties it would be much harder to do regulatory capture and corrupt every party, and even if that happened new viable ones could spring up at any time. We might actually get candidates that represent diverse political opinions. With more parties one party would be unlikely to have a majority or supermajority, and our representatives would have to work together and form coalitions to get anything done. Politics wouldn't be a team sport about defeating the other side, it would be about shared goals and constructive legislation. Candidates would want to appeal to voters who they might be the second or third choice for, meaning scapegoating, vilifying and othering segments of society would be a losing strategy. Ranked choice voting has few downsides for anyone but those who want a corrupt system they can capture and a society they can divide.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Lots of things reinforce it, the parties having a stranglehold on primaries and the media buyouts are also a major factor.

[–] Astroturfed 24 points 1 year ago (24 children)

Actually, it's destined for a centrist corrupt government. The recent "extremism" is a reaction to how upset people are at the corruption, corporate welfare and blatant monopolies that run our country.

When things get bad people look towards the extremes. That's what we're seeing now. Things aren't good, they haven't been for a while. Populism and fascism rise during bad times. Look at what happened during the great depression and lead up to WW2. America could of easily slipped into a fascist Nazi style state. Thankfully we got the greatest president the country has ever seen instead.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Except the two party system pits two opposing sides against each other, inevitably leading to them pointing fingers at each other to rile their base and get votes. The extremism comes from frustration, yes, but it is stoked by the "us vs them" mentality that politicians abuse to trick their constituents into voting for them instead of "the other guy".

[–] whenigrowup356 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Right wing extremism is a global problem and is manifesting even in parliamentary multi-party systems, though. All they need is a scapegoat to rally around and they're good to go. Look at anti-immigrant movements in Europe as an example.

Fighting about things is going to happen in any political system.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Just because something exists doesn't mean it exists in the same way. Yes, there is finger pointing and extremism, but not in the same way as the US. And in many situations they've devolved into two parties bickering, while any other parties are just coalition bait. The UK is a prime example of that.

[–] dx1 2 points 1 year ago

America could of easily slipped into a fascist Nazi style state. Thankfully we got the greatest president the country has ever seen instead.

That reads a little funny, doesn't it...

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Go back a few years. Circa 1960, the two parties had both Liberal and Conservative wings. There was no shame in a pol voting with the other party.

[–] PaulDevonUK 5 points 1 year ago

You need a multi party system like a lot of countries round the world. No clear winner = who can quickly form the larges coalition. It usually boils down to two main parties with a lot of also-ran's.

Over here we even have The Monster Raving Loony pary!

[–] Fisk400 55 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Both the democratic and republican party are several smaller parties tied together into two disgusting rat king. If one of them disappear today there will be an instant split of the surviving party into two new rat kings. The collapse isn't what they fear. They fear that the Overton window would move left.

[–] Burn_The_Right 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

And even a big move to the left would still leave us leaning right.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I think it’s very clear that the republicans in government are moving far right, but the electorate in general is steadily moving left.

Every year, about 4 million Americans turn 18 and gain the right to vote. In the eight years between the 2016 and 2024 elections, that’s 32 million new eligible voters.

Also every year, 2½ million older Americans die. So in the same eight years, that’s as many as 20 million fewer older voters.

Which means that between Trump’s election in 2016 and the 2024 election, the number of Gen Z (born in the late 1990s and early 2010s) voters will have advanced by a net 52 million against older people. That’s about 20 percent of the total 2020 eligible electorate of 258 million Americans.

And unlike previous generations, Gen Z votes. Comparing the four federal elections since 2015 (when the first members of Gen Z turned 18) with the preceding nine (1998 to 2014), average turnout by young voters (defined here as voters under 30) in the Trump and post-Trump years has been 25 percent higher than that of older generations at the same age before Trump — 8 percent higher in presidential years and a whopping 46 percent higher in midterms.

https://archive.ph/3Ydkn

And according to voter data. Gen z is very progressive especially on policy:

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/The-Exit-Polls.pdf?x91208

In 15-20 years nearly half of all boomers will be dead. The current gop can’t win a single national popular vote. Without half these boomers, they will collapse or move left. And the Overton window will shift considerably left. And with Europe moving right in a lot of counties, I’d say it wouldn’t be surprising to see the US as left as Europe in a shot time.

Also: Europe is not as left leaning as people tend to think. Aside from trains and healthcare they’re not all the left wing. And it is moving right. I’m an Italian citizen and I see it happening in Italy, and many other counties.

[–] Eldritch 2 points 1 year ago

Both our parties are pretty far right talking about economics. Republicans are going full authoritarian/fascist. While Democrats grip on social democracy are becoming tenuous.

[–] Soggy 2 points 1 year ago

Italy didn't really grapple with the fascist movement and cultural ties to religious dogma very well. It's a pretty conservative, traditionalist society. Like the American South, except Catholic.

As an outsider, when we think of "Europe" as left-wing it's because of the Nordic countries and major cities like Paris and London and Berlin, not Southern or Eastern Europe.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

This analysis comforts me, but I heard a conflicting anecdote that suggested gen z was starting to lean more right (culturally right). I have no data to back that up, but thinking about that risk makes me not want to be complacent. 2016 still looms large in my head

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He's got a point. The Republican party is fundamentally not healthy at all.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Yes, but the framing of it reads like the Democratic party being too powerful is the worst possible outcome, rather than the Republican party destroying society.

[–] mo_ztt 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ding ding ding

It's honestly impressive how accurate and succinct that part of his analysis is. I actually do agree that the long-term viability of the establishment GOP could be in serious trouble, and that the outcome a few years hence, of the Democrats as the only viable political party in Washington, would be a big problem for several different reasons. And, I think this is literally the first time I've heard that fairly serious topic being raised anywhere in the media.

But, our democracy is facing another slightly more pressing and short-term problem at the moment...

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nonsense. It's very unlikely that a party with members as diverse politically as Joe Manchin and AOC would form a monolithic power block in the absence of the GOP. It's far more likely that the Democratic party would fragment.

[–] mo_ztt 5 points 1 year ago

They could. Actually having the party fragment would be among the best options; the AOC wing is pretty tiny right now, and either switching to a non-ridiculous non-FPTP voting system, or fragmenting the party, would position it to actually be able to gain some traction.

One worse way it could shake out is the Democratic primaries become the main event (loosely divided between a progressive wing and an establishment wing). A lot of the establishment people who run the system would actually like that better, because the primaries don't have to operate as democratically as the general elections, and a lot of people would still "have to" vote for the Democrats, so in practice it would be a small minority progressive wing within a largely-establishment party. Pretty similar to now except with more corruption. Like I say, I think there are a lot of problems with that outcome.

[–] Zippy 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

For now. What will the Democratic party look like in ten years without a decent opposition party?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Either the Republican party will change its ways or a new party will take their place. Or they won't change their ways and enough will (stupidly) give them the benefit of a doubt because they are tired of the Democrats.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It'll be the latter. The US hasn't had a legitimate 3rd party since the Whigs in the 1850s

[–] hypelightfly 1 points 1 year ago

It wouldn't be a third party, it would be a replacement party. It's happened many times, and not always with a name change.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

party systems come and go. ours is almost over, and the republican party's death will be the cause

[–] dynamojoe 3 points 1 year ago

I don't remember hearing this grief when it was the Democratic party in disarray (mainly during Dubya's time in office). As always with republicans, something isn't a problem until it directly affects them.