this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2025
1002 points (97.9% liked)
Funny
7172 readers
2065 users here now
General rules:
- Be kind.
- All posts must make an attempt to be funny.
- Obey the general sh.itjust.works instance rules.
- No politics or political figures. There are plenty of other politics communities to choose from.
- Don't post anything grotesque or potentially illegal. Examples include pornography, gore, animal cruelty, inappropriate jokes involving kids, etc.
Exceptions may be made at the discretion of the mods.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I feel like this is something that women have to do a lot (not that men don't) to avoid being thought of as overly aggressive. I hate it.
I once had a (male) boss tell me (female) that to be successful as a leader in our engineering industry as a woman, you have to be a bitch. He was trying to encourage me to be less polite and more confident, but he also made it clear exactly what he thought of those confident women. I think he was trying to be a good mentor but it fucked me up, because I don’t consider myself a bitch, nor do I want to be one. It took me a long time to realize he was wrong, and that I can be a kind person and confident at the same time.
On the flipside, I was once given feedback that I’m “too direct” in emails and it came across as rude. What I realized was, it wasn’t the directness, it was the lack of friendly communication around it. You can say “I know the answer to your problem, do this thing” as long as you add in “Hi so-and-so, thanks for the great question! Here’s my brief reasoning, so I recommend you do this thing.” One is “bossy”, the other is friendly and acknowledges the recipient is an equal asking for advice, instead of an underling who should obey you because you said so.
If it makes you feel better I wouldn't be remotely put off by a response like that
It must be difficult to know what to make of that kind of feedback. Some people value indirectness, others value directness, and many people value both, at different times. And then there's the sexist aspect of some responders. Sigh.
I wonder if this is gender or industry or country. I'm in government info tech and we are pretty tolerant of single line emails stating an undecorated answer or solution
Or perhaps we're not but I don't hear about it due to being male, tall, and grey haired
That's exactly why I (a man) do it. Because I'm trying to be polite about you being wrong and before I put your nose in it, I'm giving you a chance to acknowledge your mistake.
It's diplomacy, but yeah, apparently some men are still extra salty when the messenger is a woman. Go figure.
Same. I have been working where I work much longer than my boss. I know the relevant requirements better most of the time. I don't throw that in their face. Plus, even if I'm right, they can (in the moment) pull rank and enforce whatever they want. I remain humble in my assertions and in return they almost never pull rank. It's a good balance. My boss actually depends on me to know the requirements and be able to tell everyone what they are. Then, they just enforce them. Win-win for me.
It is just admitting that you are able to be wrong, because most humans can't handle someone stating something, being corrected, and then accepting the right answer without an ego based conflict.
Not really. I do it a lot as well. It gives you a space to backtrack if you need/want to.
Personally this is something I do with my parents because if I make them feel bad for being wrong I'm the bad guy
It’s like using “just” in emails. Guys don’t do it, but women are seen as bitchy or bossy if they don’t.
Versus
The latter feels much more direct. Women will tend to use the former while men will tend to use the latter. Because for guys it conveys authority; I’m checking in on this, you should have an update. While for women they need to downplay their authority; I’m looking for an update, but don’t mind me. Because if women stop using “just” they’re suddenly seen as demanding, bossy, too authoritative, etc…
I'm a man and I still use "just" because even if a man doesn't use it I see them as aggressive and dickish. I feel it's just more polite to use it.
Here's what I think is going on, a lot of the time: Some people who come from harsh environments or harsh families think that they have to constantly sort of push people around, to show that they can't be messed with. And they react very badly to being "pushed around" themselves, in their mind. Wven if it's not that at all, just someone who knows more than them telling them something. It comes from having to jostle for position in a harsh and unfair environment. They have almost this survival instinct where they can't ever be on the bottom of the pile, and they'll start fighting against anything they perceive as putting them there, even if it isn't. And I feel like there's a lot of overlap between that mentality and the "business" mentality in some white-collar settings.
It doesn't even have to be sexist, although it can be. It's more just a hyper-reaction to anything that comes across as threatening to their authority or their position. I think some people with that mentality will seize on gender if they need to, as the reason for why some particular person can't possibly be "above" them in the hierarchy and needs to get back in their place. But they might seize on some other reason just as readily if the "threat" is a man. The only type of people they won't do that to is people who can sort of "hold their own" in terms of combatting with them for dominance. Those people, they'll be comfortable with, because when they try to put them down unfairly they'll stand up for themselves firmly and so they regard them as "an equal" where everyone else by default is not.
In other words I think it comes from insecurity and causes a needless pain in the ass in a business setting because it makes them hard to work with. Although, I don't know, maybe if you asked them about me they'd tell you all about how I'm the one that's hard to work with.