this post was submitted on 17 Jul 2023
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Human problems have human solutions.
The science is clear, now it's an engineering problem.
Unfortunately, it's actually a political problem.
Another human problem, so solvable.
It's not like a super volcano or asteroid.
Asteroid problem is more solvable than political problem.
Armageddon solved it like in 2 hours or so.
Is it though?
CEOs don't want to risk their profits.
Politicians don't want to risk their terms.
Voters don't want to lower their living standards.
No one really wants to do something.
Appropriate username, but I (unfortunately) agree
Voters not wanting to lower their living standards is the real elephant in the room. You tell someone that they should eat 1 less hamburger a week and all of a sudden you're dodging bullets.
I think this is our natural reaction because we aren't aware of the scope of lobbying and corruption that influence global politics and supply chains.
There's like 100 people with the power to make the change and they've all decided to invest the money and power in self preservation. It's the biggest 'fuck you proletariat scum' I could imagine. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/sep/04/super-rich-prepper-bunkers-apocalypse-survival-richest-rushkoff
As if the voters are any better. They could vote for policy makers that bring change, or go into politics themselves. But they don't actually want to be affected by such policy changes. It's always the others, always just finger pointing.
Are you talking about American voters?
Only about 35 percent of the eligible voters participated, so yeah. Apathy and complacent comfort is a big player in the game. I'm pretty convinced that a lot of people's apathy comes from the lack of political agency. When business interests conflict with human interests guess who wins every time.
No. I'm talking about all voters.
Ok. Well, not all countries are democracies. So, excluded those ones right off the bat. And then narrow it to voters who participate and those who do not.
If you do not participate you're part of the issue
You think only America is a democracy?
I think America is one of the participatory democratic countries. But many other countries are not. What are you actually confused about??
Participating in what exactly? What the hell are you on about with this US brabbling? You simply don't make any sense and don't seem to have a point. That's what I'm confused about. I didn't mention America, I said voters. Of course that includes the US and excludes non democratic countries, as they do not have voters. So what are you exactly trying to say here?
The largest emitter of greenhouse gasses, and CO2 is China, which not a democratic county. The second largest is United States. Idk how to discuss the possibility of 'voting' the climate change problem away without mentioning these two nations.
The largest total emitter of greenhouse gasses is the US. Followed by the EU and a bunch of other democratic countries. You are doing exactly what I said. Finger pointing rather than taking action. The US does not do enough by themselves, so how about you try stop the stupid agenda pushing and bad faith arguing, interjecting your idiotic talking points that do nothing but derail the actual topic of discussion. Because this issue does not give a flying fuck about borders.
Okay. Thanks for politely correcting me. But which country is the largest emitter of CO2?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/271748/the-largest-emitters-of-co2-in-the-world/
Not that this changes anything. It's just another idiotic talking point as you so politely pointed out. But then again, I never asserted the idiotic notion that we could simply vote the problem away either.
You did.
Then you politely pointed out that it was stupid to talk about America.
Then you made sure to call me an idiot, because America is the largest emitter of greenhouse gasses.
Care to elaborate on any of this in a productive manner?
I didn't. You're the one who interjected and derailed the topic away. I talked about voters, and you come in with America, then brabbled on and blamed China for your own responsibilities. This is typical climate denier deflections. We have the same in Germany, except they say "Germany only is responsible for less than 2% of all global emissions, we can't change anything." - followed by the same finger pointing to less developed nations that apparently aren't allowed to reach our own living standards. It's nothing but a tired topic and completely pointless. Yeah, China bad. But is the West on that topic. So saying "but China" when asked to do your own part is not going to be solving this issue, nor is it proving any sort of healthy debatte. You can also not expect developing nations to stop developing, while we continue to live in luxury. That's the exact problem I'm talking about. Voters, like you, don't care. They don't want to change anything because it would affect them personally. They rather want other countries, or future generations having to deal with it. And if they're old enough, they also don't want to be seen as the people responsible for actually getting us into this mess. They want to be seen as the generation that brought the younger people comfort and a good live. They want to live in denial and enjoy their remaining time while the world starts to burn.
So. While you blame China, maybe ask yourself how much you helped China by buying Chinese products. What car do you drive and how much? Do you really need to do all your trips with it? Do you really need a 6x6 apocalypse madmax truck that rolls coal by default? Do you really need to vote for people who advocate for non action or even reverse courses, because China? Do you need to live in a big ass sprawling suburb that the cities have to foot the bill for? Everyone loves to shit on China, or big oil, or other big corporations, while doing all they can to support those countries and companies with their own habits. So for the love of everything, stop pointing fingers and derail topics because you don't want to be seen as being part of the responsibility. This requires a global effort, by everyone, and you're not helping.
How shall I help again exactly? Voting? I didn't blame China, I simply pointed out that your solution, 'voting' doesn't work in a place that doesn't have participatory democracy. China is to blame just like America is. The wealthy, powerful Chinese and Americans, who actually could do something besides idiotically arguing, decide to continue fucking the world, our children's futures, and everything else that gets in the way of their maintaining that power. Mostly the people with power over the problem actively ignore or disregard the problem. I do vote. I pick up trash. I avoid buying new stuff, beyond that, since I'm not the CEO of Exon Mobil, I really don't have agency.
Is your reading comprehension broken are you playing stupid? I never claimed to have a solution. In fact, I pointed out a problem more than anything: Voters. And here you are, derailing towards things that aren't voters, because fuck responsibility. That's why I don't understand what you're trying to get at here. It's like you talk about a completely different topic.
And it's cool that you do all that, but feel free to actually look at other peoples actions, the actions of the huge majority of people. See what the polls around the worlds democracies say. Do you see a huge win for green parties? Do you see people willing to eat less meat? Do you see people swapping from their car to alternatives? No. The contrary. People actually even vote more and more for far right nationalists. The US voted for Trump and there are many places in Europe that are either fully or partially under far right rulership now. And this is something that will get worse with more climate related issues arising, including mass migration from the countries around the equator, that become unlivable hell holes, but also because of food and water shortages. Also, look how many people blame actual climate activists, because they get affected by them in stupidly minor ways, to the point where they want to hurt them.
What you originally said...
This implied that if we voted green, if I went into politics on a environmental platform, if I inconvenienced myself, it could change things. This does, indeed, suggest some sort of solution. I politely disagreed for a variety of reasons, you rudely misunderstood. Did I blame China? No I pointed out that voting green wouldn't change China. Did I say America is awesome. No I said America is a major part of the problem.
You say everyone is out there finger pointing, but you are unclear, and blaming me for not understanding what you are trying to say perfectly. Point the finger up your tight butt instead of at me.
China is currently one of the leaders in building out renewables. And yes, if the entire democratic world would vote green, it would be a solution. I don't know if you've noticed, but our policies actually change the world, they do it right nor for the negative, and they also have the power to do the opposite. And in the end, there's a lot of tools to hold countries that don't adhere to climate friendly policies accountable. But that first and foremost requires us to actually do the first step of fixing up the mess that we caused. So please stop the climate denial bullshit.
Please point to the place where I denied climate change.
You've pointed your finger at me the entire time we've talked, while failing to own your own words. You can't move the goal posts and expect anyone to give a shit about your opinions. You are saying voting can't change anything, while saying voting is the way to change the problem. Pick one please.
This entire comment chain of you trying to deflect away from taking action. And now stop the gaslighting. Thanks.
Stop. The. Gaslighting. You're the who's moving the goalpost with your fucking deflections. Just stop.
Learn to read. I said voters won't change anything. Stop spinning shit. Stop gaslighting, Stop deflecting.
Where exactly? What action am I deflecting?
Please elaborate/ substantiate what have I said that is contradictory?
You said 'voters won't change anything' but voting green is the way to change... If only people would vote green. So which one is it???
Alright, this is getting too dense for me and I'm not interested in orbiting a black hole. Work on your reading comprehension if you want to communicate with people on the internet. I'm out.
You like saying people go around pointing fingers, but I only see your finger pointing at me.
Did I use rude and insuting language at you? Did I make unsubstantiated claims and then back down when asked for clarification?
Your shit stinks just like everyone else's
You didn’t mention who was the largest consumer of Chinese goods which were produced in lieu of all that co2.
Well well well, now you want to discuss US? Now it suddenly seems relevant? Hmmmmm.
? You’re quoting the wrong guy there chief.
Okay, but I was replying to that user. Americans must stop consuming, and that is not controversial at all.
For sure. But it’s not just Americans. They might be the biggest offenders but the problem of over consumerism has plagued the entire world. At this point our economy is global. The tentacles of capitalism have invaded every corner of the planet.
Our problems today were manufactured well over a hundred years ago. It’s only taken this long for it all to finally catch up.
I felt an existential crisis about this a few years ago. I wanted everyone to simply stop everything, appreciate what they had. I sat down and spent an entire year as simply as possible. Eating simply, consuming very little. The truth is, it's difficult to do and in our society it is not rewarded. I felt like it was a period of self improvement, but the ultimate truth is, I could not control anyone else, even if I was the living personification of self sustaining anti consumerism. Now I teach early elementary. Participating in this very small way feels like a vast improvement to hiding out like a hermit.
I can't control anyone, especially wealthy adults. But I can influence the future adults.
Dropping a big ice cube on the ocean every now an then?
Would you need a bigger ice cube every time?