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The first presidential debate is done and the aftermath has not been good for the incumbent, Joe Biden.

Some Democrat politicians and operatives reportedly texted CNN commentators with hopes that Mr Biden, 81, would step aside. Some floated the possibility of going to the White House and publicly stating concerns about him remaining as candidate.

But if Mr Biden were to drop out, it would be a free-for-all. There is no official mechanism for him or anyone else in the party to choose his successor, meaning Democrats would be left with an open (Democratic National Convention (DNC) in Chicago from August 19-22.

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[–] dhork 26 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Just made a large post on this elsewhere, but the TL;DR is that the party can't just replace Biden. He has all the delegates from the primaries. Do you really think the party that is campaigning on preserving Democracy can get away with ignoring elections?

Now, it's possible that Biden gets diagnosed with a severe case of not-gonna-win-itis which adversely affects his health to the point that he has to resign not only from the campaign, but from the Presidency. If that happens, Kamala Harris becomes the 47th President, and has the only real claim to take over the ticket. It has the fun side effect of making Trump reprint all his hats to say "45 - 48" instead of "45-47".

(The Secret Service better take good care of President Harris, because whatever VP she appoints to take over that role needs to get a majority vote in both houses of Congress, and the House will never do it.)

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

the TL;DR is that the party can’t just replace Biden.

The Democratic Party can run whoever it wants. The primaries and party nomination are (mostly) party-internal processes. They could say "now the rules are we choose a random US citizen". They don't have to do a primary at all. Some parties don't. There was a point in time in US history when primaries weren't a thing, and parties were quite happily doing their thing back then.

kagis for a starting date

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election

The direct primary became important in the United States at the state level starting in the 1890s and at the local level in the 1900s.[17] The first primary elections came in the Democratic Party in the South in the 1890s starting in Louisiana in 1892.

The United States is one of a handful of countries to select candidates through popular vote in a primary election system;[12] most other countries rely on party leaders or party members to select candidates, as was previously the case in the U.S.[13]

EDIT: As a good example, the Libertarian Party -- though much smaller than the Big Two -- is the next closest. Under their rules, they participate in primaries, but they treat the primary simply as a way to obtain the preference of the electorate; the primary doesn't bind the party, under their rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Libertarian_Party_presidential_primaries

The Green Party has a mix of conventions and primaries, depending upon state; a random member of the electorate may-or-may-not directly vote to select their party's candidate.

https://www.gp.org/2024_nomination_process

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Also, fun trivia bit:

They could say "now the rules are we choose a random US citizen".

There were historically some systems of government who not merely had random people chosen as candidates, but random people chosen to run the society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

In governance, sortition (also known as selection by lottery, selection by lot, allotment, demarchy, stochocracy, aleatoric democracy, democratic lottery, and lottocracy) is the selection of public officials or jurors using a random representative sample.[1][2][3]

In ancient Athenian democracy, sortition was the traditional and primary method for appointing political officials, and its use was regarded as a principal characteristic of democracy.[4][5] Sortition is often classified as a method for both direct democracy and deliberative democracy.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I'd add that I don't at all agree with some of the people in this thread, who are on the left end of the spectrum and mainly seem to be hoping that the Democratic Party will select someone further left than Biden because they personally would prefer a further-left candidate. In the American electoral system, voting is FPTP. That means that you tend to wind up with two large, big-tent, fairly centrist parties (which approximate party coalitions in parliamentary systems), and the smart move for each to win general elections is to run a centrist candidate.

A Big Two party can nominate someone out on the fringes, but then they will cede the general election to the other party if the other party runs a centrist candidate.

In fact, a major argument against primaries is that they may tend to choose a suboptimal candidate for the general election, since they tend towards electing candidates towards the center of the political party, and that that a more-winning strategy for a party is to choose someone not at the center of their party's views, but between that and the center of the general electorate, and that the party members are more-likely to make use of strategic voting than are members of the electorate that votes for their party's candidate.

I watched a very similar discussion play out on British political forums over the past decade or so. Due to Labour changing some internal party policies that lowered the bar to party membership, party voting changed. Some left-advocacy groups organized a campaign to get people on the left side of the Labour spectrum to become members, to act in the party candidate selection process, and as a result, Jeremy Corbyn -- who is on the left end of the Labour spectrum -- was chosen as Labour candidate. There were people who were absolutely convinced that running Jeremy Corbyn would be a stupendously winning strategy because they personally were politically closer to Corbyn and couldn't imagine why anyone else would vote against him. I watched Tony Blair give a talk where he pointed out that unless a political party wins elections, it doesn't get to have political power, and that while he was a centrist candidate, he actually won elections and that Labour had mostly been out of political power for an awfully large portion of recent British political history. Sure enough, Labour proceeded to run Corbyn twice and were clobbered in two elections. Now they're back to the comparatively-moderate Keir Starmer and based on polling, are looking at having strong results in the imminent election.

EDIT: If you want a great graph illustrating the Corbyn situation, here's a graph of polls of voting intent for the next UK election. Corbyn lost the leadership position (which in the UK's political system, also normally grants one the prime minister's office in the event that one's party wins) in April 2020, to provide time context.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_%28LOESS%29.svg

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago (1 children)

A Big Two party can nominate someone out on the fringes, but then they will cede the general election to the other party if the other party runs a centrist candidate.

Phew, I'm glad we could never end up with a President Trump leading Republican party running rightward as fast as possible then.

Maybe centrist political wisdom is actually just trash and things like charisma, inspiration, and vision actually matter rather than some idea that all voters are on a single axis "politics" line.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Trump's run on pretty anti-immigrant speech, but he's pretty moderate in most other respects. He's probably the least-religious president we've ever had, and ran for the "religion party" ticket; he had to run with Pence to make up for lack of appeal to social conservatives. He advocated for (well, or at least gave the impression of) fairly-protectionist policy and ran for the free trade party's ticket. Since the start of the Cold War, the GOP's tended to be the hawkish party, and he ran on a relatively noninterventionist platform (though I'll concede that there's always been a paleoconservative isolationist faction, but it's been relatively weak for quite some decades).

Trump constantly says outrageous stuff -- he definitely makes it a point to be politically incorrect -- but his policy is actually not especially exciting.

I looked at his website way back in the 2016 election before his campaign had built up any steam. This was back when Hillary was running a nice, typical website, long list of issues, you know what campaign websites normally look like. At that point in time, he -- hillariously -- had only three issues on his campaign website. And none of his actual positions represented much of a change from the status quo:

  • Opposition to FTAs; at the time, we had been negotiating TPP with the Pacific Rim countries and TTIP with the EU. Both had effectively failed already at this point. Trump gave the public the impression that he was responsible for this, but it was something that was going to happen under Obama or not. He also spent a long time complaining about NAFTA. Thing is, I already had listened to speeches from a few politicians who had played this game with NAFTA (e.g. Ron Paul complains a lot about NAFTA but is quieter about why he opposed it, because it wasn't permissive enough, whereas most people listening to him are upset that it isn't restrictive enough). I had a pretty good guess that Trump was going to pull similar shennanigans on policy, looked at his white paper and sure enough, no specific changes, just lots of fluffy emotional text giving the impression that he was in opposition. And in office, he took NAFTA, negotiated a few minor changes, and then renamed it to USMCA. Having kicked the legs out from decades of time that manufacturing unions had built public opposition to NAFTA, he left the thing alone. So, he advocated for a position that sounded unusually close to the position that the folks on the left side of the spectrum wanted and, in fact, essentially left existing policy alone.

  • Opposition to immigration. Now, you could make a fair argument that he worked pretty hard to sell a nativist image. But his actual policy also wasn't particularly notable. He put through one regulation that SCOTUS was pretty sure to shoot down and kept it a constant source of political theater for a significant chunk of his term. He made an enormous deal out of his wall, kept it in the news, gave the impression without ever saying so that he was going to build a wall along the entire border. But this isn't even a new game to play from Trump. Bush Jr used the same shtick back when he ran. In his case, it was a "fence" and played a less-prominent role in his campaign.

  • Gun rights. He has no specifics and this is trivial to do: just don't involve yourself in additional restrictions. This has been a pretty stock generic Republican point because it costs nothing to do ever since the Democrats did the federal Assault Weapon Ban, which was not popular and sunsetted; it's something that every candidate just slaps on their page.

Hell, Trump was a Democrat back when Bush Jr was in office.

But Trump is far right. The news says so.

If you read news media that favors the Democratic Party, it will say that Trump is far right. If your regular news sources favor the Democratic Party, you have probably read a lot of articles over past years that say that.

If you read news media that favors the Republican Party, you will find plenty of material that will say that Biden is far left.

But Biden's not far left! That's ridiculous!

Yup. But presenting someone as being extreme is a good way to make them less appealing. You can find people who will self-identify as "left-of center" or "right-of-center", even "left" or "right". But very few politicians will call themselves "far left" or "far right". That's usually a label used by the media favoring the other side.

There are a lot of things that I don't like about Trump. But they mostly deal with his presentation and the tactics he uses. I dislike his willingness to make contradictory statements. I don't like the fact that he tries to piss people off about someone else -- especially via dishonest claims -- and exploit that anger. I dislike his willingness to disregard the political-consensus-building role that elections have, to concede, though I'll grant that maybe if there's a problem there, it needs to be fixed in the underlying system. But he's extraordinary mostly in his presentation, not in the policy that he's adopted. We had him for four years. US policy didn't change much, certainly not from mainstream Republican Party policy.

When Trump first ran for office, I remember Bill Kristol -- a conservative commentator who really dislikes Trump -- stating that most of what Trump says is misdirection. Basically, Trump can't force the media to say what he wants. But he can make a colossal amount of noise about something outrageous that they cannot resist covering, so that they talk about that instead of whatever meaningful actual policy stuff is going on. The coverage may not be positive, but it lets him direct the media narrative -- it's all about whatever outrageous thing he said on Twitter. I was a bit skeptical at the time. I could believe that Trump wouldn't change much on NAFTA because I'd seen other Republican politicians play the same game he was, but had a harder time buying that on immigration. But that was, I think, pretty accurate as an assessment. Most of what is unusual about Trump are the outrageous things that come out of his mouth when he's politicking. It's not really his policy.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

LOL. Yeah, sure thing bud. People could be excused for believing this fantasy before his election, but they were dumb then too. And he's on track to win again after everything he did and the transformation of the party into the vision that matches his fascist rhetoric.

[–] Maggoty 4 points 5 months ago

The primaries aren't actually legally binding. This is a misconception that keeps going around but the party makes the rules for the convention and it's the convention that nominates the candidate. Furthermore, Russia has more democratic elections than the primary we got this year. A single name on the ballot isn't an election. It's a roll call.

[–] reddig33 0 points 5 months ago

Yep. It’s too late. Should’ve done this ages ago if you were going to do it.