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-1 Timothy 2:12
This is why I hate the "these aren't real Christians" no-true-Scotsman dismissals.
The Bible is a toxic book full of misogyny and racism. Sure it has some good stuff in there, but when the founder of Christianity* is so clear about his thoughts on the subjugation of women then these are Christians following the teachings of their religion.
Christianity is only compatible with the modern world when it is so diluted by humanism that it would be unrecognizable by its founder; that's why reactionaries are working to change the world instead of updating their morality. They want power over people, and enforcing their backwards ideology is their path forward.
* And Paul was the founder of the religion; Jesus didn't expect the world to last longer than the lives of his disciples
I'm gonna quote Wikipedia on 1 Timothy:
It turns out that most of the NT passages that have been used to repress women use grammar and vocab that suggest they did not actually come from Paul. And in fact they are a hundred years newer than the letters that do appear to be authentically from "Paul".
Paul expected the world to end too. That's why he suggested that everyone should be celibate. No point in getting married and having children if the world is just going to end anyway.
That is a great point about pseudopaul. I had forgotten that this letter's authenticity was questionable.
However there are practically no evangelical groups who would agree with modern scholarship on the subject, so my larger point holds: they believe that Paul instructed women to be subservient and silent.
Also, as far as I can tell, Paul was one of the ones who shifted Jesus' prophecy about his coming kingdom from that of an imminent apocalypse to a prediction about the rise of the Christian church. While he did believe that the end of the world was near, so do a huge swath of Christians today.
Thanks for the correction, it is appreciated.
I'm not sure about the value of questioning the authenticity of something that has been canon for almost 2000 years. It's like quibbling about how the Latin translation of the Old Testament doesn't match Hebrew sources.
Who cares which misogynistic jerk wrote that passage? It's been part of the bedrock of the faith of countless generations of misogynists since then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
Besides, that isn't even an appeal to tradition, because they aren't arguing that something is correct because it is traditional, but rather specifying that the tradition is de facto practiced and accepted.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
All I'm saying is that, for Christians, the text of the Bible has been mostly locked down since the Vulgate Bible at around 400 AD. The content is what it is, and is the basis of the faith.
At this point it doesn't matter if someone mistranslated the Hebrew, misquoted Jesus, made Jesus up entirely, or forged an epistle. It's been in there for 1600 years and it's authenticity or accuracy is moot.
Arguing about the origin of 1 Timothy is like arguing about the colour of the wings on the fairies that live at the bottom of the garden. It's all made up rubbish anyways.
I'm just an ex-Mormon agnostic atheist, and you're absolutely right, and trying to say that the hardliners are not "Christian" is overlooking a well-established tradition of Christianity being shitty. They are perfectly within "scriptural authority" as they understand it and as their ancestors have understood it.
On the other, there is room in the historical record and scholarship of the Bible as historical text to make a case for an evolving faith that can forge a kinder path, and I think many of the remaining protestants in Europe and "mainline" Chritian churches in America try to to this to one degree or another. Unfortunately, they are all much too content either to humor the fundies, maybe because many in their own congregations would pick that theology if forced to choose explicitly, or else they "No True Scotsman" the hard liners and count themselves done with it.
If you are a Christian who believes that your God is kinder than he is described, then assert that confidently. Make a place in the world. Assert that your Bible is a flawed documentation of an evolving faith tradition. If you can't do that, and most of them can't because they fear the Southern Baptist Convention might be right, then you have to live with being conflated with those who think Iron-Age nonsense and cruelty should be the basis for a modern society.
Yeah! Fuck people who want to better themselves in a way I disapprove of!
Do you really think subjugation of women improves these people?
There are plenty of Christians who don't do that; I have no problem with humanist Christians.
I have a huge problem with reactionaries who use their religion to oppress others. You should learn the difference.