this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2023
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13
Ender 3 Pro adhesion problem and magnetic bed advice (lensdump.com)
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by feecoomeeq to c/3dprinting
15 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Hello Lemmies.

album with photos in order 1-7: https://lensdump.com/a/9Atmx/?sort=title_asc&page=1

EDIT: Direct links may be more convinient pic 1-7

https://i.lensdump.com/i/CbGQ5c.jpeg

https://i1.lensdump.com/i/CbGJv1.jpeg

https://i.lensdump.com/i/CbGtcQ.jpeg

https://i1.lensdump.com/i/CbGrOM.jpeg

https://i1.lensdump.com/i/CbGEDk.jpeg

https://i3.lensdump.com/i/CbGTse.jpeg

https://i2.lensdump.com/i/Cw2uL9.jpeg

I am new to 3d printing as I bought a used Ender3PRO. After initial problems with no adhesion I leveled the bed a couple of tiems. My method is to pinch the paper between the bed and the nozzle to grab and feel a strong friction taking out the paper-sheet. Then in PrusaSlicer I set the Z-offset to 0.2mm and it started printing fine-ish (pic.1, 2, 3 and 4). I made some printer vibrations dampener and figures (around 14 prints ~1,5h each). Next I printed a PS4 Slim Stand (pic.5) and separations between layers appeared.

I increased a bit the temp and run a second piece of the PS4 stand and a dissaster appeared (pic.6) and since then the adhesion to the bed is gone. One in 5 attempts with some glue the filament sticked to the bed, but the next layers have a lot of missplacements and eventually filament sticked arround the nozzle and a destroyed print.

The problems I noticed since the beginning:

  1. adhesion is not great. The nozzle clean line is 80% of attempts dragged with the nozzle to the center of the bed when the brim starts printing. And gets curved just outside the hotend.
  2. a 1-2mm of filament is always outside the nozzle (overextrusion?). I usually clean it with my fingers - wrong?
  3. the printer has a glass bed but I would like to try using the magnetic Ender sheet. The glass is glued to the printer (pic.7)? Can I place the magnetic sheet on the glass? Should I then set Z-offset on the printer settings to avoid nozzle coliding with the bed?
  4. On retraction, the extruder makes a loud click and sometimes a squeak. Is it normal?
  5. I had a hard time to put the filament in the tube of the extruder. Like it was missplaced and had to bend the tip of the filament.
  6. I washed the magnetic sheet with dish-soap and I'll try my chances today.
  7. The PLA is black, stock Ender3 filament which I suppose is not best quality, but should be sufficient for start... Im also considering moisture in filament as I don't have a sperate room for my printer. Pic.6 - can it be caused by moisture?
  8. After what happender on Pic.6 the extrusion was really poor which I think was due to clogged nozzle. After heating to 240*C, pulling out the filament, needle-cleaning the nozzle the amount of filament extruded returned to what it was at start.

Some settings:

  • 205C and 60C for first layer
  • 200C and 55C for the rest
  • retraction ON
  • no Z-hop (I'll try to avoid it for now, since it didn't help)
  • brim on
  • 0,2 layer height
  • first layer speed 20mm/s, rest ~40mm/s

Any advice welcome and I'll provide more info if You have any questions.

all 16 comments
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[–] fhein 8 points 2 years ago (6 children)

I'm not a fan of paper levelling. It's my belief that when the printer thinks that it is at Z=0.2mm then it should be exactly 0.2mm between the nozzle and the bed. If you're levelling with a paper when the bed and nozzle are hot, then you're most likely going to end up "one paper's thickness" too far away, e.g. around 0.1mm for printer paper. If you're paper levelling cold, then it's possible that thermal expansion compensates for the paper's thickness, but IMO it's a bit of a gamble.

Personally I level by eye. If you place a lamp behind the printer and babystep the nozzle downwards you can see when it just barely touches the bed, and no light shines between the bed and nozzle. This has to be done with nozzle and bed heated to print temp (or just below filament melt point to prevent oozing) and you have to be careful to not let the nozzle press down against the bed. You can do a safety check by telling the printer to move to Z=0.1mm afterwards, and you should now be able to slide a paper under the nozzle. However, this method might be difficult with a mirror bed, which it looks like your printer has.

  1. It sounds like you're building up pressure in the nozzle potentially due to over extrusion, nozzle being too close to the bed, or too low print temp. I would avoid touching the nozzle with the hands and use a pair of tweezers instead.

  2. Metal sheet build plates should be placed on a magnetic layer that is glued to the printer carriage. Maybe you can place it on the glass, but I think there's a risk that it doesn't stay uniformly pressed down on the glass. Even a tiny air gap could cause inconsistencies in levelling.

  3. No it's not normal. If the extruder clicks it means that it has missed step(s). You're probably either retracting too fast, e-steps is configured wrong, or I think it could be caused by print temp being too low, though if that's the problem it would probably skip during printing as well.

  4. This is normal. When you press the tension button to insert the filament it changes the filament path, but it should return to normal afterwards.

  5. Washing the print surface with soap and rinsing with warm water is the best way to clean it. Avoid touching it with your hands as much as you can afterwards.

  6. Moisture is almost never an issue with PLA. I think it can go bad if it has been sitting in the sun for a very long time, but that's not a frequent problem. If you take a piece of filament and bend it as much as you can then it should not be brittle and snap, otherwise don't worry about this.

  7. It looks like you had a partial clog, the procedure you describe is normal to do afterwards. The clog could have been caused by bowden gap, too low print temp, incorrect retraction settings, or something else.

Photo 3. It looks overextruded in some places, normal in some, and underextruded in one place. This could be a sign that the amount of extruded material depends on how fast the nozzle is moving, and the hotend can't keep up at higher speeds. This can be fixed by raising print temp, setting a lower top speed, and/or upgrading the hotend.

Photo 5. Looks like bad layer adhesion. Often caused by too low print temp or too high print speed.

It sounds like your print temp could be a bit on the low side. PLA is very forgiving with high temps, but if you have a teflon lined hotend you need to be careful with that. Maybe worth trying 210C for first layer, and 205C for the rest?

It is possible to print on plain glass, some even do it without heating, but using some kind of adhesive can definitely help if you're having trouble. Personally I use Magigoo which works great (on my textured E3v2 glass bed) but is a bit expensive. For a budget option you can try glue stick, but it should be a brand with high PVA content, e.g. Elmer's Purple. Some glue sticks have very low PVA content and won't do anything at all. Extra strong hair-spray, e.g. Aquanet, is also supposed to work, but I wouldn't use that if you can't remove the bed from the printer to apply it elsewhere..

To summarise, the things I think you should try:

  • Level the bed a tiny amount closer to the bed, could be on the scale of 0.05mm
  • 5C higher print temp, or do a proper temperature calibration test print.
  • Bed adhesive
  • Run calibrations for e-steps (printer hardware) and flow rate (the filament you're using).
  • Calibrate retraction length using a test print. What's your current retraction length and speed btw?
  • If you're still failing, print the first layer of a calibration cube and abort the print when it starts on the second layer. Take photos of the first layer and post here.

I made some printer vibrations dampener

How did you make these? Dampening vibrations might seem like a good idea, but the printer also needs to stand on a stable surface and not bounce around. Some DIY "vibration dampers" actually cause more problems that they solve.

And finally, since you bought a second hand printer.. You really should verify that it has thermal runaway protection enabled in firmware. Some people disable this as a bandaid for other issues, but it literally makes the printer a fire hazard. If you have the possibility, interrogate the previous owner about exactly how they have modified the printer. They've obviously glued a glass plate as print bed, but they might have done other stuff that's not as visible.

[–] BalooDK 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Wow, that’s an amazing reply. I’m not OP, but I appreciate people who spend the time to make a thorough and detailed explanation.

[–] fhein 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thanks! I know several people who know more about 3d printers than myself, but I've spent over a year helping people over on the 3D Printing discord so I've picked up a few common problems and their usual solutions. And I've spent quite a lot of time troubleshooting, calibrating and upgrading my own printer of course.

But to be honest I'm making an extra effort to be helpful and reply to people because I want communities on Lemmy to get traction :)

[–] BalooDK 3 points 2 years ago

I’m no pro, but I have been printing for some years now. I came here to help out, but your comment said everything that had to be said. Great work. I do hope this is how Lemmy (and this community in particular) is going to be. Thanks to people like you, it’s going in the right direction

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

I'll second that! Great things to look for. Only thing I can add is, check your extruder gear/housing, that may have given up. Not sure if the pro came with, or if yours has, the same plastic extruder the e3v2 comes with. Mine cracked about 6 months after I bought mine brand new, so if it's second hand that could be an issue. Also, it's not uncommon for the extruder gear to wear down, this could be the source of the clicking and extrusion issues

[–] maschmann 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Just a thought: Did you clean the bed with isopropyl? I had similar issues with bed adhesion on an Ender3 with the glass bed after a few prints, since I forgot to wipe it down.

On paper-levelling: Yes it's kind of archaic, but it works. And an Ender3 is entry-level stuff where you have to integrate a BLTouch by yourself and compile marlin - that's not something you want to do as a beginner.

[–] fhein 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Soap and warm water is generally preferred to isopropyl, since the alcohol dissolves any fats (e.g. fingerprints) and can spread it out as a thin layer when it evaporates rather than removing it from the bed.

Paper levelling can work, especially with experience, but it's not a simple formula that all beginners can follow and always end up with a perfectly levelled bed afterwards. I've talked to many people who have bought their first printer, followed a paper levelling guide they've found, and no matter how many times they've tried failed to get good results.

I never mentioned probes though, and even if you buy a BLTouch or similar you have to calibrate the distance between the probe's trigger point and the nozzle, so it wouldn't automatically solve initial levelling for a beginner.

[–] maschmann 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The comment derived from me, using a prusa with PEI sheet and their official advice is to wipe it down with isopropyl. But that is totally opinionated and only to be seen as one way to clean your buildplate surface. So, totally fine to use soap and warm water :-) Oh, and it's more readily available in most cases. But could be a quick fix if fats are the cause for the adhesion problem.

Your statements on levelling and probes are also totally valid. For most people, starting with less sophisticated (cheaper) printers, this is a painful learning curve. But it pays off to understand the overall complexity of 3D printers and finetuning - and it's fun to experiment.

[–] fhein 3 points 2 years ago

I mean IPA definitely works as a bed cleaner, one just have to be careful to wipe it off and not let it only evaporate, at least if there were lots of fingerprints on the surface.

Calibrating a 3d printer can almost be seen an art form :) And once on gets the hang of the basics, practice makes perfect. Personally I think I've got a good feeling for when calibration looks right now, but in the beginning I also struggled a lot with levelling and adhesion. Unfortunately the "feeling" is something that comes with time, and not something that can be easily conveyed with words to a first time printer.

To make things worse, different factors often influence each other. For example if flow rate is too low, one might try to level the nozzle closer to the bed to compensate. Or if print speed is too high it can look like under extrusion, so a user might incorrectly turn up flow rate.

[–] feecoomeeq 1 points 2 years ago

IPA good cleaning worked great. Adhesion right back, but it seems that proper nozzle height also played a role in my case.

Some thoughts in the newest comment. Thanks!

https://lemmy.world/comment/629393

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

I am running magnetic sheet on glass bed with magnetic layer and it works great for me. I get a lot of weird pushback from people but... yeah, it works fine. And you can swap out plates and keep the rigidity and thermal mass of glass. If you don't want that then yeah, go straight to putting the magnetic sheet on the heating plate itself, but I've had heat-evenness issues and I like the extra thermal inertia so it solves problems for me.

I wrote it all up here if anyone wants to see details:

https://solarbird.net/blog/2023/04/09/the-question-im-sure-was-on-everyones-mind-can-you-combine-pei-and-glass-beds/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Also yeah instead of paper for levelling I bought a feeler gauge and it's way more reliable since, well, that's what it's for, as opposed to paper where thicknesses can be all over the place. They cost very little (under $10 USD) so they're something I consistently recommend.

[–] feecoomeeq 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yesterday after another hour or so I think the printer is back on rails.

  • previously my retraction was something from PrusaSlicer defaults so like 5-6mm, now 3,5mm
  • I changed the nozzle to a new 0,4mm which gave good results right away (cleaner first layer and no colision by the nozzle with the lower layer)
  • an IPA clean mentioned in previous comment worked great. Still one layer of paper-glue stick is used and is helpful
  • I leveled the bed with some margin. I always leveled it to fill good friction with the piece of paper, but now, right when the friction starts i loosen the know/spring half of a degree just that the friction is gone.

Gave Cura an another try with this one: https://lensdump.com/a/9ZGlC first successful print from the start of this post

  • flow 0,9 and initial layer flow 1,01. In PrusaSlicer it was 0,95 I think
  • layer height 0,2
  • initial layer height 0,2
  • Z-hop 0,3 (sadly had to use it to avoid hitting the previous layer
  • top/bottom layer pattern = concentric
  • infill 20%
  • printing and initial nozzle temp = 210*C
  • printing bed temp 60C, and initial 65C
  • print speed 40mm/s, and top/bottom print speed 10mm/s
  • retraction enabled with 3,5mm distance
  • brim on
  • Travel Tab: ENABLED: retraction, retract at layer change, z-hop when retracted, z-hop only on printed parts. Yet to try combing mode
  • infill pattern = cubic

second successful print (Cura too): https://lensdump.com/a/9ZaX5 :

  • only changed initial layer height = 0,15mm
  • the print-initial nozzle clean at the bed edge still sometimes gets dragged to the center but it happens partially or doesn't mess the print and I can pick it up after brim is printed

third successful print (PrusaSlicer gave me warnings about supports needed, but Cira didn't):

BTW. Its printing this https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5193117

Tips/ovservarions welcome and thanks everyone for the comments which I've read and gave me ideas what to check/google <3

[–] feecoomeeq 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

! this reply is for 30.06.2023 morning state. I'll post a today's update around an hour !

THANK YOU for replying. I'm pretty desperate since the r/Ender3 is private and have spent yesterday ~5h trying different settings.

Actually I think I'm leveling to close to the bed. As I described, I slide the paper under the nozzle and tighten the gap to fell much friction. Yesterday with some trial and error, I set the Z-offset to zero and the nozzle was so close that no filament was extruded. I started to make a slight gap as the paper barely drags between the gap and its better this way.

  1. As above, increasing the distance was a good idea, the temp. also went up 215/60 first layer and 210/60 rest.
  2. I tried placing the magnetic sheet on the glass bed, adjusted the Z limit, but the adhesion was poor. I'll try it another time, when I'll make the printer work properly.
  3. Print temp increased, first layer 10mm/s rest 40-50mm/s. I'll try to record how the extruder works.
  4. I just found this vid and seems like loading filament to the extruder is a bit of a pain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i4FBZ1jZk4
  5. I washed the magnetic sheet with dish soap, but can't say it helped. BUT cleaning the glass bed with isopropyl alkohol for like 10 minutes to get all the glue stick and gair spray off worked reeeeeeealy good. The adhesion of first layer was right back.
  6. I think I unclogged it, but today I'll try an extrusion test to see if the filament bends or runs straight.

Still ToDo: • Run calibrations for e-steps (printer hardware) and flow rate (the filament you’re using). • Calibrate retraction length using a test print. What’s your current retraction length and speed btw? • should verify that it has thermal runaway protection enabled in firmware.

"I made some printer vibrations dampener" They actually made a noticeable difference in loudness and didn't cause problems with first 5-8 prints with them: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3649851

PHOTOS UPDATE: https://lensdump.com/a/9iY7Q/?sort=title_asc&page=1 or https://i3.lensdump.com/i/CxzqHz.jpeg https://i.lensdump.com/i/CxzVGC.jpeg https://i1.lensdump.com/i/CxzkDo.jpeg

Pic.1: First layer adhesion is back but after the extruder goes to second layer it colides with the first layer, messes the extruded filament and moves the print around. Pic.2: Failed prints and the final and best since now being print which can be seen on pic3 Pic.3: Enabled there 0.3mm Z-hop at layer change and the layers were 0.16mm. Was looking promising at first comparing to the previous prints that had drags etc. from the beginning. After some height it went crap again.

[–] fhein 2 points 2 years ago

I hope it feels like there's some progress being made at least :)

I obviously want the 3d printing community on Lemmy to grow, but if you need more urgent support I recommend the 3D Printing discord. It can be much easier if you have someone to live chat with, and not have to wait hours for a response to your post.