this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2023

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Canadians divided on talk of sexual orientation in schools, poll suggests (globalnews.ca)

submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

35 comments fedilink hide all child comments

In a new poll, nearly half of Canadians say they support the notwithstanding clause to ensure that schools tell parents if their child wishes to use a different name or pronoun.

all 38 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A total of 1,518 Canadians participated in the web survey from Oct. 6 to Oct. 9. It cannot be assigned a margin of error because online polls are not considered truly.

Call me suspicious of the validity of an online poll. Aside from the fact that it doesn't share it's collection location or methods, online polls are substantially more vulnerable to brigading, astroturfing, or any other form of manipulation.

Global News should be fucking ashamed of itself. Imagine calling this cash-in of ad revenue on this hot topic issue, "journalism".

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The problem is the average person is not able to think past what they directly observe/experience. A single news article or meme on their Facebook feed is all that is needed to shape someone’s opinion on a topic forever.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

single news article or meme on their Facebook feed

A single article that already conforms to their existing biases is all that it takes. A lot of people already feel like they own their kids, and an article that reframes that as "some people want to rob you of your ownership rights" will seal the deal

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

And some parents would want to know so they can support their kid, but are not answering with the context of other kids who have the opposite of supportive parents.

Like if my kid revealed something like this to a teacher I would want to know to help be supportive, but sure would not want teachers to be obligated to tell all parents because my wants are not as important as the safety of students with terrible parents.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

AND it emboldens them to make the rounds being a repeater.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I wish these polls would ask those same parents if they support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child.

Because here's the thing; if you think you deserve to know what's going on with your child, that's fine. That's a healthy thing to want to know. And if your child thinks there's something you should know, they'll tell you.

But if they haven't told you, it's because you've never given them any reason to believe that it would be safe to tell you, and that is entirely on you.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

@Voroxpete @sik0fewl Many probably would. Many “parental rights” people view their children as more akin to property than people.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Do you have any children?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@PenguinJuice @sik0fewl @Voroxpete Three.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ah, I see. So you're just playing devils advocate then.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think that's a great talking point, however I strongly doubt it's true.

I don't have kids so I've got no pony in this race, but I do have a dog. He's not property, I'm not his 'master', but he is 100% my responsibility, which is why I keep him on a leash whenever we leave the house. It's why I spend my time watching him when we're at a dog park instead of sitting on my phone like the other people there.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@baconisaveg I’m not the only person suspecting what “parents’ rights” means to many or most of the rightwing advocates of it. While I often side-eye people using Youtube to back up their claims, I do think this particular Youtuber succinctly lays out the often problematic use of “parents’ rights”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNOmFBw1I_M&t=6s

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

https://www.piped.video/watch?v=mNOmFBw1I_M&t=6s

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I wish these polls would ask those same parents if they support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child.

They did, and they do: "Just under half said that [teachers should have to notify parents] even if a child tells their teacher they don’t feel safe informing their parents."

[+] [email protected] -7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That doesn't imply there is danger. If the child tells you that they are not safe around their parents, you're not going to exactly take that lightly. It's not "Oh, hi Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Given that you are such wonderful, upstanding people, contrary to your child's claims, we'd like to inform you that your child, formally known as Fred, has decided to change their name to Sue." You're going to be rolling in with child protective services and the full force the law behind you to investigate.

Perhaps you are suggesting that child protection doesn't work, but if that's the case, that needs to be publicized more as most people are under the impression that these services provided by the government are effective.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

What? I didn't say any of that. I didn't say anything about child protection. I was just saying what the poll asked and what people responded. I'm not saying anything about it or implying anything about child protection. I'm giving information directly from the article.

To be clear:

OP asked if people "support outing children to abusive parents when doing so might endanger the child."

The poll asked if the teacher should have to inform the parents of a child's wishes even if the child says they don't feel safe telling their parents.

According to the article, just under half of respondents said yes, the teacher should have to notify parents even if the child doesn't feel safe doing so.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That's not quite the same thing.

My question is this; how many people would support outing a child if they knew, with absolute certainly, that doing so would cause the child harm.

Phrasing the question around the child's feeling of safety allows people to dismiss it as a non-issue, because they simply do not trust children to evaluate threats accurately.

But when it comes down to it, very few people would willingly subject a child to harm in the name of "parents rights." Not if they knew with absolute certainty that such harm would occur. And that's why I think this hypothetical is important. In reality you would almost never know, with absolute certainty, that a child would be in danger. But what this question establishes is that, fundamentally, the child's right to safety overrules the parent's so-called "right" to surveil their children.

Having established that, the rest comes down to the simple fact that an educator is not in a position to properly and fully assess whether a child would be at risk from that information being shared. Lacking that knowledge, they should err on the side of safety, which means trusting the child to make the decision. Information can always be shared, but it can never be unshared.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I can agree that it's not exactly the same thing. But I think the implication of the question and answer are what you're looking for, and the direct question would skew the results because most people wouldn't admit they support abuse outright.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Exactly. The child not feeling safe does not equate to there being endangerment, at least in theory, because the parents the child has raised concern about will become under the watchful eye of child protective services when the teacher raises that concern as well. We don't exist in a vacuum. You would not have one without the other.

Again, maybe you're trying to imply that those services are not effective. That very well may be true, but if that is the case, then that needs to be made known. Most people have faith in government services and are making decisions based on that understanding.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Again, I'm not saying anything about those services or anything about what the teacher will actually do. I'm only talking about the question and the answer. If you disagree with how I'm reading the question or interpreting the answer, that's one thing, but stop reading into (or putting into) anything I'm saying to be about the effectiveness of child protective services or the morality of teachers.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Again, I’m not saying anything about those services or anything about what the teacher will actually do.

They are not separable concepts. The are intrinsically linked. Again, we do not exist in a vacuum. You cannot talk about one without the other coming along for the ride.

I get that you like having a neat and orderly space where you can focus on one individual idea and forget that everything else exists. Who doesn't? But this poll is conducted in the real world, where people look at the entire world when considering things. They have no reason to be concerned about a parent inflicting harm based on revealing name information because they understand that the child raising concern about their safety around the parents will also trigger additional supports to address that issue.

Again, you may be trying to imply (since you won't speak to it directly) that those supports are not effective. That very well may be true, but if that is the case, then that needs to be made known. Most people have faith in government services and are making decisions based on that understanding.

In summary: Your original comment doesn't address the comment it is in reply to. It fails on faulty logic.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

They have no reason to be concerned about a parent inflicting harm based on revealing name information because they understand that the child raising concern about their safety around the parents will also trigger additional supports to address that issue.

This is where I disagree. Your entire premise that what I'm pointing out implies something else is based on a fallacy.

Frankly, you're giving people way more credit for how deep they would be thinking about the implications of their answer.

Just because you answered yes because you thought this was the case, doesn't mean everyone, or even most people would think that.

And, if you desperately want my opinion on what you're arguing... I think it's disgusting to answer yes to that question thinking that it doesn't matter because the system will protect the children. You're giving the system too much credit, and while most might, not every teacher or school official will be on the student's side.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

My kid got a tongue piercing when he was 18, and put a lot of effort into making sure I wouldn't find out. It took 3 days. I told him it was a poor choice and to take care of it so he minimized his chances of bad outcomes. When I asked him why he didn't tell me right away, he said he didn't think I'd get angry or anything, he just didn't want me to disapprove.

Sometimes kids will take a while to let you know things for reasons other than fear of reprisal, but parents in that situation can usually accept that their kids will take time to be ready.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

Religion has done more harm to children that anything that has existed on earth. That's what we shoul be protecting them from.

[–] ttmrichter 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Canadians divided on talk of sexual orientation: bigots vs. non-bigots.

That pretty much identifies most divides on social issues.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Poll suggest that some Canadians are racist, bigoted, climate-denying, coal-rolling anti-vaxers but it's much easier just to call them 'conservatives.' Is there someway to put an import ban on US politics?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I hate labelling people like that. I wish we could would just call them racist, bigoted, climate-denying, coal-rolling antivaxxers.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

ugh 15 years of social progress regressed...

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This whole gender topic is merely a distraction from bigger issues that actually matter.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How we treat people and their human rights actually matter.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Let me rephrase that:

This is a manufactured issue to keep people from organizing and stopping the permanent destruction of the environment that sustains life on this planet. I doubt the people that manufactured it know that though, they only know that they're still making money from unabated and unsustainable resource extraction.

To be clear, our environment is collapsing right now, no one knows how long it will take to completely collapse though. This summer has been the hottest summer on record, almost exponentially so, and it's not going to stop until we stop it. There are already bodies of water that are becoming to hot to sustain life. If the oceans, lakes and rivers die, we die along with them because the plants and animals (phytoplankton) in all the water make the vast majority of the oxygen you're breathing right now. We have to stop fucking around and get the fuck to work and stop this or everyone dies. Maybe not in our lifetime, but as it stands now, it is definitely going to happen. Again, this is just another distraction to keep people from doing that so others can keep making money off of it.

*I of course think Premier MooMoo is way out of line on this, but it is in essence a made up issue to distract, to keep eyes away from his, or his governments ostensible industry friends. A person chooses their pronouns as a way of expressing who they are, respecting that decision is common sense; however, it's easy to make that an issue with today's hyper connected aged toddler.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's easy to say when you aren't a sexual minority getting pushed around.

Yes, I would much rather be giving a shit about a zillion other issues. I would like to put this to bed and get onto other things. Unfortunately, conservatives just won't leave LGBTQ kids alone.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Yes, exactly. You won't do anything about the issues that are much more immediate because "they" have created these other issues for you. It certainly is important that people don't have their right trampled on just because of their sexual orientation though, and the funny thing is it seems to be the same group that are protecting those that are fucking everything up environmentally. I hope votes are enough to stop it all.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

My friend is trans she, grew up with hetero church going parents, teachers who talked about the hetero families and basically had no exposure to trans ideas til her 20s. I dont think knowing about something gives full on desire on top of that you can't transition until your 18 and a individual adult...

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Here is the poll report:

https://leger360.com/surveys/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-in-canada/

Rather than blaming the ignorant about these issues. I think this report shows we need to do more work too support schools and raise the level of education on these important, and life saving curriculums and services.