Facebook owns what’s app and they can read any message on the service, they’ve also been known to give logs and messages to law enforcement agencies at request without warrants.
this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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Privacy
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Probably not, but it's impossible to verify. There's a strong argument for open source when security really matters.
I think there is a strong argument for Foss for anything
You bet your ass they can. Since when has Facebook taken anybody's privacy seriously? And you remember all the Snowden leaks? Like how AT&T has been a government apparatus for spying for decades? Or how about the way that the USA taps under sea cables to monitor data, causing China to build totally parallel backbone infrastructure
The better question is whether Signal, despite being open source, is actually secure. It's very plausible that the govt has backdoors somewhere, for either encryption, the OS, the programming language, the app store, or some random dependency lib
The answer is yes, the US government spies on everything, and has a complete profile of everyone
Signal hasn't been compromised. It has been reviewed and is continuing to be reviewed by tons of researchers and security personnel.
Its also important to note that its used internally by goverment organizations in the US so it has to be at least reasonably secure.
Don't believe propaganda you read online.
Well, in my comment I describe quite a number of methods. It doesn't matter how secure or reviewed signal is, if the feds have a keylogger at the OS or compiler level. It's really unbelievable how much code is involved in day to day security
The keylogger and operating system (if you're using Android) is open source as well. They can't just put a keylogger in there.
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Time to bet my ass
Well you gotta be careful if it's your only donkey but I'm still confident you'll end up winning a second ass
Another thing to consider is that the US (and probably most 5 eyes countries) have agencies with a "store now and decrypt later" policy. They theoretically could be capturing certain types of traffic and storing it in the massive NSA fusion centers. If you come under suspicion at some later date and the quantum technology has advanced, you could be hosed. Now what's the legality of storing "precrime material" without a warrant? I wouldn't think it is legal but that doesn't seem to stop the 3 letter agencies these days.
They don't have to attack the encryption, there are far easier ways. Compromising your phone then reading the notification contents for example. If a smallish company can do this (pegasus) imagine what the resources of the US intelligence complex can do.
The easiest way by far is to intimidate you to give up your phone password and hand over the messages.
XKCD for refference: https://xkcd.com/538/
Shouldn't the phone disk be encrypted too?
Doesn't matter if the phone is compromised while turned on.
Given enough time anything can be decrypted, so, yes. The actual question is if they would have any interest in doing so given the large investment of time and resources required when they can simply hit you with a wrench until you give them the password to your device or in more enlightened Countries, just buy the data directly form Meta. You don't control the server so there is no assurance of any encryption being secure beyond your chat not being interesting enough to justify the attention.
Everything I've ever heard about government cryptography from people close to me is that the government (FBI, military) is wildly far ahead of what's available publicly. I wouldn't count on anything you do on the Internet to be truly private.
That was at times of DES. Cryptography that is used today is proven to be complicated enough that it's unbreakable unless the government got quantum computing working at sufficient skale.
Like others wrote, attacks will happen when the messages are received and decrypted.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-38551-3_11
Dated August 2023.
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If you did not enable end-to-end encryption for your WhatsApp backups on Google Drive, the US government could possibly compel Google to hand over your encrypted (but not end-to-end encrypted) backup, and compel Meta to hand over the decryption keys for the backup.
Details about how WhatsApp backup works: The Workings of WhatsApp’s Backups (and Why You Should Enable End-to-End Encrypted Backups).
I know that WhatsApp backups aren't safe and I never turned them on
this post has some good information.
tldr - you cant fully verify
People got arrested for WhatsApp messages in my country so there is a backdoor built in no question
That's mostly group chats and someone from the group showed the comments to the police.
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The code is not open source, so it's hard to verify how good the encryption is or if it has backdoors.
I'm not an expert in cryptography, but from my limited knowledge, the cryptographic keys used are very important. If Meta or the government can somehow know the decryption key to your messages or predict it, then they can see your messages.
But they most likely don't need to decrypt it in transit. One of the vulnerabilities in this system is Google firebase, which delivers notifications to your phone when WhatsApp messages arrive. Ever noticed how those notifications include the message content and the sender? Google has access to this information, despite the encryption.
That's just an example. Google has access to a lot on your phone.
Another thing to consider is message metadata. The content of your message is encrypted, but what about information like the destination of your message, its recipients, time sent and received, and frequency? I'd even argue this is more important than content in many situations. Sometimes, linking person A to person B tells me a lot about person A.
Ever noticed how those notifications include the message content and the sender? Google has access to this information, despite the encryption.
Not necessarily. I work on a messaging app, and we only use firebase to "wake up" the app. Initially the notification doesn't display anything meaningful, but the app very quickly connects to the server (tells the app who it should connect with) and then the peer (to finally get the actual content). The notification is updated once we have the content. But it typically goes so fast that you only ever see the final version of the notification.
yowsup is an Open Source implementation of the WhatsApp protocol. So there is proper end-to-end encryption on the protocol level - that would only leave the possibility of having a backdoor in the "official" WhatsApp client, but none has been found so far. BTW, people do actually (try to) decompile the WhatsApp client (or the WhatsApp Web client which implements the same protocol and functionality) and look what it is doing.
For anyone really curious, it's not too difficult to hook into the WhatsApp Web client with your web browsers Javascript debugger and see what messages are sent.
The E2E keys are exchanged over Meta servers, right? Couldn't they just store the keys and decrypt on the server?
Only public keys get exchanged via Meta's servers, those keys don't help you with trying to decrypt any messages (you need the corresponding private key to decrypt - and that private key stays on the device).
Sure, they could just do a man in the middle, but that can be detected by verifying the keys (once, via another channel).
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That repo was updated two years ago, everything could have happened within that time.
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They can just ask Meta for the chats lol, don’t even have to probably already have access.
The better question is, do you trust meta at all? I'm sure they have a way to read everyone's chats and would gladly hand over yours to the government if they want it.
I personally wouldn't touch WhatsApp with a 10foot pole. As it is owned by Facebook, the company who earlier this year paid a company to compromise TAILS OS to find a pedo. Which its not the fact that they threw a pedo in jail. But the fact they compromised anonymity and in no way are a government body!!! So glowies be glowing hard at Facebook.
They also have done other spooky shit. Which is why the only reason I use Facebook is to sell my shit.
We could also talk about the OS and hardware your using to message people for security. If you want to know more read permanent record by Edward snowden. Its a great book and talks alot about PRISM and other spooky stuff
It is impossible to say. If you are that concerned you should use something else
It does not matter how good the encryption is. The app on your device has to be able to decrypt the content to be able to show it to you. If it has access to the decrypted data, it could just send it somewhere. If it has access to your private key, it can leak it. Even if the app is open source, you do not know if the binary on your phone matches that source, unless it uses reproducible builds and you actually verify the binary on your particular device, after each update.
Ask Meta. Its not Open source, its all "trust me bro its encrypted with some encryption"
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