this post was submitted on 25 Jun 2023
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Balancing a boss fight for an Eloquence Bard! (self.dnd)
submitted 1 year ago by Psymonkee to c/dnd
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Hey,

I'm running Call of the Netherdeep for a party and have some potential final boss cheesing I need help with. Members of The Inevitable should leave now!

I have been looking at the final boss fight and it tries to have the players talk the boss down for damage/debuffs and finally surrender in different phases. These are set at increasing DC's of 15/17/19 for the 3 stages.

The tricky part is I have an Eloquence Bard in the party and at level 8 his minimum floor for a persuasion roll is 22 😬

How do I play this or alter this to make it more challenging? Obvious strategy would be to attack/silence the bard after hearing their silver tongue the first time.

I could just up the DC's but that feels like I'm diminishing the player choices and restricting other players from joining in the efforts?

Ideas/thoughts welcome!

One possible solution would be to have the boss require each player to pass a persuasion check at some time?

Individual party member bonuses for Persausion are: 0/+2/+5/+7/+12 (min roll 10, min persuasion 22 😬 ).

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[–] Durugai 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Bard player still has to say the right things in the first place to make the check at all, there is not guarantee they will do that. But if they do... LET THEM this is literally their characters big thing! Why not let them do that specific thing? It feels backwards to me to have a "Well this fight has a conversation skill option but I am not going to let the character that has conversation skills participate".

IMO the rolls are not the interesting part of this, the party figuring out how they can get bad the guy to change their mind is.

[–] Psymonkee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm just concerned it'll be too easy and a bit of a let down for a campaign ender. Lots to think about though :)

[–] Durugai 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As someone who don't know your players, do they normally try to talk down the enemies they fight?

You don't have to just put the mechanic in front of them, I find it really cool that the authors included a "If they say the right things there is a chance" it gives the villains a more real feel, they are not so manically set on their goal.

[–] Psymonkee 1 points 1 year ago

The bard does, the fighter just wants to kill, the rogue keeps hitting on different npcs.

It's amusing to me anyway 🤣

[–] phrankygee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So I just went and checked out the specifics of this battle, and the key phrase is “speak with empathy and compassion”. If the player doesn’t approach the character in question with actual “empathy and compassion”, then they don’t get to make the persuasion check.

If your party actually figures out that someone needs to talk to this guy, and HOW they need to talk to him, then it’s perfectly fine that they automatically succeed on the roll, as long as they let the most eloquent person in the group do the talking.

I imagine most parties will go into default “boss battle” mode and not try diplomacy at all. If you want a party to stop shooting, smiting, and casting, and instead start talking about feelings, in the middle of a boss fight, that’s going to probably take some pretty big hints by you that it’s even a possibility. If they figure it out, then they deserve to win that way.

[–] Psymonkee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The player in question has been very diplomatic in resolving situations and has appealed to enemies sensibilities in the past. Could simply use that as a jumping off point and 'preview' of the boss fight I guess?

[–] phrankygee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This particular end-boss seems very specifically designed to be “rescued” instead of killed outright. I don’t think it will feel like a letdown at all to play it out like the book recommends. It starts out as a raging monster, and gradually comes back to its senses.

Imagine you are the Avengers, and the Hulk is the end boss. The goal isn’t to kill the Hulk, the goal is to survive him long enough to get Bruce Banner back. Part of the team has to distract him and keep him from killing Natasha while she tells him that the “Sun’s getting real low…”

It doesn’t matter that one of you has the guaranteed soothing words to calm him down, you still have to survive and coordinate to even get him to listen.

[–] Psymonkee 2 points 1 year ago

Very fair analysis, I'll bear that in mind!

[–] Ellie_The_Nurse 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I dont understand the Min Roll 10 comment.

Other than that, this seems like a chance for your bard to shine! Perhaps they should get the limelight for this one? I’d adjust the DCs with the bard in mind but maybe play up the fact they can only try this because the rest of the party is doing their job in the fight by beating the boss down, etc. ?

[–] phrankygee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Eloquence Bards get to treat any roll on certain charisma skills as a 10, whenever they roll less than a 10. So with expertise and high charisma they can guarantee a roll of 22 or higher in those skills related to eloquent speech.

Usually the DM can set difficulties or even decide if a roll is called for at all, but this module has a chance for diplomacy, and the corresponding DC baked in.

I agree, though, that the correct answer is “Let the eloquence bard do their thing!” The chance to talk the boss down comes in “phases” for a reason. As long as you still have to survive Phase 1 and Phase 2 before you can suggest surrender in Phase 3, you’ll still have an interesting encounter.

And there is always the possibility that by Phase 3, your bard player won’t even think about using diplomacy once the fighting has already been going for a bit.

[–] Psymonkee 1 points 1 year ago

They can use persuasion in Phases 1 & 2 to lower their health too but I think you might be right with the 3rd phase 'this seems to be useless, lets kill!' mindset may well set in.

[–] Psymonkee 2 points 1 year ago

Yep, as someone else pointed out the bard gets to treat and d20 for Persuasion/Deception as a 10 and then add their modifier.

Still thinking about the boss fight and the other actions surrounding it and the greater context though, lots to think about.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I agree that an auto success schould not be a problem but if the bard argues their case well enough

You can go in addition to the changing DC go advantage /normal roll /disadvantage for all players and say a nat 1 is an auto fail with bad consequences