this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
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[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Yes, because profit is what's so important and not part of creating the problem, right?

Why not use both?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because we only have limited resources and they have to be used wisely. So if it is cheaper to build solar, rather then nuclear, we should use our workers to build solar. The other problem is that nuclear reactors do not last forever, so over time, they will be phased out, just due to economics.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

The problem is it's not that simple from a climate perspective. Solar and wind are great but are incredibly variable which is not good when you need a guaranteed baseline electricity production. There is no situation under which a large nation could reliably just use wind/solar to power the country. Currently nuclear is the only renewable, clean energy source that can produce a stable output.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Nuclear is not renewable. It uses uranium as fuel. It is low carbon and emission free, but not renewable.

There are two solutions to intermittency. First one is a large grid with a lot of differen renewable power sources. It is always sunny somewhere, so when you can move the electrcitiy around, you have much less of a problem. Even better ifyou have wind power as well. With a continent sized grid, you basicly avoid the problem of cloudy days.

Next part is storage. Due to the large grid size you have the ability to use hydro power plants with reservoir as long term storage for particullarily cloudy days or winter and battery and pumped hydro for nights. Biomass is also an option if need be. Maybe we later hydrogen as long term storage as well, for really bad weeks and using it mainly for say chemical plants. Again the better large and interconnected the grid the less storage is needed. In some regions namely large sunny deserts having a nights worth of storage and some emergency backup biomass power plants would be enough. Basicly it runs down to less then a day worth of storage

There are also actually renewable baseloads like hydro power for flow power plants and geothermal, which are also good options. Also variable demand is a thing, which allows for even more renewables.

Seriously intermittency is much less of a problem, then it is made out to be. You just have to add a bit of interconnection and storage to it, but even that is not that expensive and seriousyl usefull.

[–] schroedingershat 5 points 1 year ago

This is the lie that is told, but nuclear has trouble getting grid penetration over 70% even with massive overprovision and storage via foreign interconnect.

Stable output which is totally interrupted for weeks at a time isn't useful for meeting a combination of stable, variable, and dispatchable loads. Nor does it contribute meaningfully alongside variable output.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

No reason to fight the tide. Renewables and storage are enough.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People just say "storage" as if it's some simple solution. It's not. Pumped hydro can work in some places but it can also cause pretty impactful disturbances for the local ecosystem so it needs to be planned with care. Hydrogen storage is not a mature technology yet, it's still in the trial stage and has pretty poor performance (something like 35% round-trip efficiency), not to mention the issues with hydrogen gas leaking due to its small molecular size. Shouldn't even start discussing lithium ion, but the danger of thermal runaway should alone be enough of a reason to plan it very carefully.

Don't get me wrong, renewables + storage is the future, aside from eventual fusion power it's the cheapest and most environmentally friendly alternative. But a lot of people talk as if there aren't enormous technical challenges in stabilizing a power grid with renewables at the moment. Remember that precisely all of the power that is put into the grid has to be pulled out of the grid, every minute of every hour of every day of the year, as soon as that equilibrium is broken in either direction we experience significant issues.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's so much years old anti storage propaganda in your text, it's painful.

Hydrogen storage is not a mature technology yet

What makes a tech mature to you? We have all the components of a hydrogen storage path up and running everywhere around the world. They're not profitable, at least not without government incentives, but solarpunk is anti-capitalist, so profitability shouldn't be among our primary concerns.

something like 35% round-trip efficiency

That's a worst case figure for purely electrical round trip efficiency. We could use waste heat of the fuel cell process (to a lesser extent also the electrolysis process) in order to bump that number up considerably.

not to mention the issues with hydrogen gas leaking due to its small molecular size

That has not been an issue for quite some time thanks to advances in materials science. Also, we could use methanation, of course sacrificing some more efficiency, but then we could even use old natural gas infrastructure without an issue.

Shouldn't even start discussing lithium ion, but the danger of thermal runaway should alone be enough of a reason to plan it very carefully.

Lithium-ion batteries are environmentally bad for sure, but talking about thermal runaway? Really? You need very high temperatures for that to happen. Most stationary storage applications will never see such high powers that they come even close to thermal runaway by themselves. If in a high power application, you'll have better battery management systems supervising the temperature and reducing the allowed power. It's really a non-issue if you have engineers who know what they're doing working on it.

Coming bad to environmentally bad: see sodium-ion batteries.

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[–] iemgus 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Profit is the only real problem with nuclear. The US navy has 7000+ years of operating nuclear reactors without a major incident, and with minimal enviromental impact.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ok, they are a bit different in scale and construction.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Our government is busy to make people pay for owning solar panels. So yeah profit is always more important and literally no government or company gives a shit about the environment.

I'm pretty sure people will start removing their solar panels here soon since no one wants to pay more for doing good.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Renewables are incredibly cheaper to build, come online orders of magnitude faster, are completely non-centralized, require massively less infrastructure, have no millennium length waste storage dangers, etc etc etc. The only component still to be built out is energy storage to meet the baseload, and that's well on its way with batteries, water pumping, and other energy storage technologies.

It's just not even a question, renewables are the better choice for new construction.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Renewables are incredibly cheaper to build, come online orders of magnitude faster, are completely non-centralized

All true.

require massively less infrastructure

Not true. In fact, very much the opposite is true, nuclear plants are vastly more compact.

have no millennium length waste storage dangers

Neither does nuclear, really. Waste storage is a non-issue, that has had effectively zero observable impact over the decades we've been doing it.

But the bottom line is that this is a distraction. The longer we continue focusing on short term profit, repeating the previous generations' mistakes, the harder it will be to get to zero emissions. Nuclear and renewables are not mutually exclusive. The more diverse our energy sources, the more robust our fossil-fuel free grid will be.

[–] schroedingershat 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Not true. In fact, very much the opposite is true, nuclear plants are vastly more compact

Distributed solar and agrivoltaics have 0 or negative land use and require less material than a nuclear reactor. Whereas low-yield uranium resource (like Inkai) has a lower area specific power than a dedicated utility solar install.

Distributed solar + battery also has the effect of massively reducing strain on transmission. A household that previously had a summer peak consumption of 20kW, a summer average of 2kW and a winter max daily average of 1kW can now be fed with 800W of transmission instead of 20kW. Results are less extreme in high latitude but it can still halve.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And if I might add: access to large amounts of water is also an infrastructure and France is already running out of it.

[–] schroedingershat 3 points 1 year ago

Also true.

Along with an enrichment industry (building one rather than paying russia will get your country coup'd, bombed or cyberattacked), and waste processing/permament storage (of which there is one small token facility in finland that might work, and numerous projects that failed to contain their waste and had to be cleaned for hundreds of millions to billions).

Then there is the milling and mining waste which is usually abandoned on indigenous land or in a developing country.

[–] echo64 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Great news if you want the free market to solve all the world's problems.

I'm more into ensuring we have a diverse carbon free energy generation future, though, and nuclear is just able to solve the storage problem today, which makes it incredibly valuable to society.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are there any nuclear plants today that implement energy storage? I know molten salt reactors would be capable but none actually exist as far as I can find.

[–] NotSoCoolWhip 2 points 1 year ago

It's not that they are used for storage, but are able to be ramped up or down to meet demand at will., eliminating the need for storage. Kind of like a tankless water heater

[–] schroedingershat 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Even with massive overprovision and the rest of europe the inflexibility and geographic concentration of nuclear makes it unable to beat solar + wind with mere minutes of storage in terms of grid penetration.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is that counting the massive storage costs necessary for running a fully renewable grid? Including the low saturation point for cheap storage like pumped hydro and increasing costs with increasing scale due to material shortages? It is definitely cheaper per kwh right now, but we want to know the overall cost going forward.

[–] schroedingershat 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Are you counting the even higher storage costs for running an all nuclear grid?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Why would an all nuclear grid need more than a day of storage? You just need to match constant supply with a 24 hour demand curve.

(And I doubt anyone's arguing for an all-nuclear grid, since renewables are so cheap when they're available. We just need enough dispatchable power on the grid to survive weather events without burning gas.)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Why would an all nuclear grid need more than a day of storage?

Technically they need 200,000 years worth of storage. Although in that case it's more archival.

And you can't just balance load with nuclear reactors, they take forever (as in days to weeks) to spool up, you can't just switch them on. So you're still going to need some storage capacity and if you're going to have storage anyway you might as well have a simpler energy generation system to boot without all of the big complicated nuclear reactor equipment.

Plus of course the fact that you can stand up solar panels and wind turbines almost anywhere in 6 months, but you'll be wrangling for 30 years to build a new nuclear reactor.

[–] schroedingershat 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Because they have weeks or months long unplanned outages every year, often correlated and are over-concentrated geographically so fail-over requires huge transmission overprovision.

As to that last, building a $20/W generator and keeping it in hot shutdown to use for 200 hours a year costs thousands of dollars per MWh. There are vastly cheaper ways to get 100 hour storage.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can’t infest every house on every street on every neighborhood with door to door nuclear power plant salespeople. Profitability is the least important metric in my mind for such a huge topic as energy production.

[–] schroedingershat 6 points 1 year ago

You can’t infest every house on every street on every neighborhood with door to door nuclear power plant salespeople

God bless 'em though, they're trying,

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

@pizzaiolo Even with the extreme subsidies given to nuclear, it still doesn't make money. Insurance payout cap, govt responsibility for cleanup, the fact most of the tech was paid for by public money, massive state and federal subsidies for plant operation... it still can't turn a profit. lmao. That's the real reason PGE was going to shut down Diablo. It's too expensive to operate, and it has unfunded maintenance liabilities that total near the original plant construction cost.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

We need to do both. The amount of renewable energy that we need to decarbonize or economy is enormous.

Right now we don't have the industrial capacity to manufacture the amount of solar panels, wind turbines and batteries needed for the transition. We need to ramp up the production, it means new factories, new trained engineers and technicians, new mines for the ore... All of that takes years or even decades to setup. The estimates I saw for the amount of lithium needed implied that we need to multiply the production by a factor of 20 !! Renewables energy also requires a lot of copper. New mines can take decades to open.

We already have some industrial capacity for building nuclear reactors do we should use it. Same for renewables and ramp up as much as we can.

I'm 2020 this is the world primary energy mix :

  • Coal: 27.6%
  • Oil: 31.6%
  • Gas: 25%
  • Nuclear: 4.4%
  • Hydropower: 7%
  • Wind: 2.6%
  • Solar: 1.4%
  • Other renewables: 0.5%

Right now fossil fuel are still above 80%, it needs to be close to 0% in 25 years. We need to use all the tools we have available: nuclear, solar and wind.

[–] schroedingershat 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Diverting resources from solar and wind which are growing ~25-50% and currently 2EJ/yr per year to nuclear is a net loss given that a 20 year build up of the nuclear industry resulted in <1EJ/yr increase in the 80s. By the time any new reactor is online, the annual production of new PV will exceed the entire nuclear fleet builtnover 70 years.

Just the first fuel load for that much nuclear requires more than doubling uranium mining. Not to mention the iridium, gadolinium etc. or anything outside the core. And this is in uranium resources that are significantly worse than those currently being mined.

The "so much copper" for solar is about 0.4kg/kW for distributed (10% of current mining would cover all electricity in 2 years).

Similarly current lithium production is producing about 1TWh/yr of batteries. 10 years of that is overkill for lithium's role in grid storage (although about an order of magnitude more is needed if the goal is for everyone to have an EV and we ignore sodium ion, both unrelated to cancelling renewable projects and instead pretendingnto build a nuclear reactor).

You're also making fossil fuels seem like a bigger contributer than they are. 1J of electricity will provide 5J of space heating or the same travel distance as 5-8J burnt to refine petrol and make an ICE car go. 20% hydro/renewables/nuclear means that only 50% of the actual stuff done is via fossil fuels. Which is not to say heat pumps and electrified transport are trivial transitions, but they are necessary either way.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is lithium still that important with the new battery technologies emerging?

I've been reading that sodium based and even solid state batteries are making leaps and bounds while at the same time we are actively reducing the amount of lithium required to manufacture large capacity batteries, by introducing new formulas based with much cheaper and plentiful elements.

What I would like to see is a ramp up on recycling more and better.

[–] schroedingershat 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sodium ion is commercial now and in the scale-up phase. It's usable for anything a lithium battery was usable for in 2015, but with some advantages (cheaper, longer lasting, shippable fully discharged, less fire-prone). Other grid scale technologies (ZnBr, Fe, NaS, V, Na-flow) are in the demo stage.

In either case the current scale of the lithium battery industry exceeds the scale needed for diurnal grid storage significantly. Mining a kg of lithium is both lower environmental impact and larger in scale of application (in terms of energy per year delivered by the associated system) than mining a kg of Uranium.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You don't need to remember me the downsides of mining lithium or uranium.

If the numbers are true, my country has the richest reserves of lithium in Europe and one of the richest in the entire world. But the idea of strip minning it does not appeal to anyone and we have a village actively campaigning to not have a mine set up there, regardless the number of jobs ot could bring there.

Regarding uranium, I actually live in an area where it was once mined the land bears the scars. Nobody really remembers how much rock was cut, crushed and hauled away by train in the day.

But this always brings this to mind: why are we not investing in technology to harvest lithium from salt water? I remember hearing it was a viable option growing up.

[–] schroedingershat 2 points 1 year ago

The answer to your last is the same as why we didn't just move a lot of industry to wind in the 40s and relax sometimes or solar-thermal in the late 19th century. Those with power want more for less and in a form they can monopolise.

Demonizing grid storage because of the lithium is a bit of a misdirection though, >90% of it goes to those cars which could easily be replaced with rail/human powered/light vehicles at minor or no inconvenience.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

For the article, which you apparently didn't read:

“Given enough time, it may be possible to build a nuclear power plant to the highest safety standards and remain economically relevant, even taking into account the costs of storing nuclear waste for thousands of years,” the scientists concluded. “However, building nuclear power plants requires many years of planning and construction and is expensive, while the climate crisis demands urgency and requires such large investments that profitability is paramount.”

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

“However, building nuclear power plants requires many years of planning and construction and is expensive, while the climate crisis demands urgency and requires such large investments that profitability is paramount.”

..they say as they ignore the glaring fact that prioritising profit over everything else is literally what got us in to this urgency-demanding mess in the first place, and that depending on the "good will" of people who will refuse to act until and unless something is proven to make them money is only ever going to continue serving them, not the rest of the planet.

I think the person you replied to is valid in wondering why anyone thinks this is a positive development when all it is is more fucking around within the rules of capitalism and somehow expecting capitalism to change..

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

New research has brought to light a significant shift in the energy landscape, indicating that renewable energy sources are now proving to be more profitable than nuclear power. This paradigm shift has far-reaching implications for the future of global energy production and sustainability efforts. The research underscores how advancements in technology, increased efficiency, and a rapidly evolving renewable energy sector are making wind, solar, and other clean energy sources not only environmentally responsible but also economically viable. This development not only reinforces the trend towards a greener and more sustainable energy future but also highlights the potential for substantial economic benefits associated with embracing renewables over traditional nuclear power options. As economies transition to cleaner energy alternatives, this research acts as a powerful catalyst for accelerating the adoption of renewable energy technologies on a global scale.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Remember that, capitalization is important for people looking for those nice profits. And earnings come from differential capitalization. The issue was never that they are or not profitable, but if the 'big capitalists' are even willing to participate in making 'abundance' even a possibility.

I'm pretty sure that if we put our time and effort in organize ourselves we can handle most of the problem with power, but trying to get them to work in the "green capitalist" way is just not understanding how capitalism works. Its about control of production, not some ambiguous idea of a free-market with god-like awareness.

Hope these technologies develop faster, yet, I know if they are even implemented around the world with the idea to improve peoples lives: will not be under the state of capital.

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